Twitter’s Trust and Safety Policies Discussed in Live Podcast
In a recent live podcast, Tim Poole, a well-known personality, and Jack Dorsey, the CEO of Twitter, engaged in a conversation about trust, safety, legal matters, and public policy. The podcast, sponsored by the Cash App and supported by Justin Ren’s charity for building wells in the Congo, addressed some of the concerns raised by viewers in previous discussions. The lively conversation aimed to provide a deeper understanding of Twitter’s policies and their impact on the online community.
Tackling Unaddressed Issues
Tim Poole’s video critique, which highlighted the need for further examination of certain issues, prompted Joe Rogan to initiate the podcast. Recognizing Tim’s expertise and knowledge on the subject matter, Joe invited him to join the conversation with Jack Dorsey. Their previous successful podcast together had generated positive feedback, as they covered various topics that resonated with the audience.
One of the crucial topics discussed was the case of Dr. Shaun Baker, a proponent of the carnivore diet, whose Twitter account was recently suspended. Dr. Baker’s advocacy for the diet as a solution for autoimmune issues had gained popularity among the Bitcoin community. However, a photo on his profile depicting a lion devouring its prey was deemed in violation of Twitter’s rules against graphic violence or adult content.
The Role of Algorithms and Human Intervention
When Joe Rogan questioned the decision to lock Dr. Baker’s account, Jack Dorsey explained that Twitter relies on a combination of algorithms and user reports to identify and address potential violations. In this specific case, it was likely an algorithm that flagged the photo. However, Twitter also allows users to appeal decisions, which would then be reviewed by a human to ensure the validity of the violation.
It is essential to strike a balance between the use of algorithms for efficient moderation and the need for human judgment to prevent false positives. This approach ensures that content policies are appropriately enforced while providing users with a means to challenge any unjust restrictions.
Discussion on Twitter’s Policies: Policing Content and Ensuring Safety
In a thought-provoking conversation, Tim Poole, a prominent figure, and Jack Dorsey, the CEO of Twitter, delved into the challenges faced by the platform regarding its content policies. The discussion focused on issues such as graphic images in avatars, mob reporting, misinformation, and targeted harassment. By addressing these topics, the conversation shed light on the complexities of moderating a global platform and the responsibility to protect users while maintaining freedom of expression.
Graphic Images and Avatar Rules
During the discussion, the question arose as to whether a specific image violated Twitter’s rules. Jack Dorsey clarified that the platform’s rules primarily target violence towards humans and cruelty towards animals, rather than nature-related images. This clarification highlighted the importance of differentiating between graphic content intended to harm individuals and content that depicts natural behavior.
Mob Reporting and Targeted Harassment
The conversation then turned to the issue of mob reporting, where individuals or groups can mass-report posts, potentially targeting a specific person. This phenomenon underscores a challenge faced by platforms at scale. The conversation examined the possibility of exploitation, with Tim Poole suggesting that adversaries could abuse the system to report and remove posts of someone they disagree with. Understanding and addressing mob reporting behaviors becomes crucial to maintaining fairness and preventing misuse of reporting mechanisms.
Furthermore, the discussion highlighted the complexity of identifying the intentions behind targeted harassment. Twitter aims to strike a balance between allowing freedom of expression and protecting users from abuse. The rules against misgendering and dead naming specifically aim to prevent harm and demonstrate the platform’s commitment to inclusivity and respect for gender identity.
Misinformation and Balancing Perspectives
The conversation then shifted to the topic of misinformation and the challenge of determining what information should be restricted. Jack Dorsey emphasized that Twitter aims to avoid becoming an arbiter of truth, as it is a difficult and contentious position for corporations to police information. Instead, the platform focuses on addressing direct and tangible harm that may result from certain content. The discussion raised questions about whether restricting access to certain information can inadvertently create echo chambers or filter bubbles, limiting exposure to diverse perspectives.
Maintaining User Voices and Preventing Abuse
Overall, the conversation revolved around finding a balance between allowing users to exercise their voices and combating abusive behavior. Twitter’s approach centers on combating abuse and harassment while providing users with a platform to express themselves. By clarifying the intention behind their policies and highlighting the importance of safety and inclusivity, Twitter aims to create an environment where users feel empowered to engage while minimizing harm.
Silence them because I think that that’s what we’ve seen over the years is a number of people who have been silenced online because of the abuse and harassment they’ve received and they either stop talking or they leave the platform in its entirety if you look at free expression and free speech laws around the world they’re not absolutely they’re not absolutely there’s always limitations on what you can say and it’s when you’re starting to endanger other people so my question then is when I was physically threatened on Twitter you guys refuse to take down the tweet and I showed up in Berkeley and someone physically threatened me because they were encouraged to when I was in Venezuela I was physically threatened by high-profile individual 10,000 people tweeting at me you guys do nothing right so I guess there’s the obvious question of why does it always feel like your policies are going one direction politically you say it’s about behavior you said several times already but already I’ve got tons examples of that not being the case and you will always be able to find those examples where you guys were alerted.
Multiple times and did nothing like when anti-fat a bunch of law enforcement agents some of the tweets were removed but since September this tweet is still live with a list of private phone numbers addresses yet Kathy Griffin she’s fine the guy who threatened the lives of these kids in Covington and said lock him in the school and burn it down you did nothing I mean he got suspended I’d take his tweets down was he banned for threatening the lives of kids absolutely so again we have and I’m happy to talk about all these details we have our policies that are meant to protect people and they’re meant to enable for expression long as you’re not trying somebody else now we take a variety of different enforcement mechanisms around that sometimes you get warned sometimes we’re your tweet is forced to be deleted it’s a very rare occasion where we will outright suspend someone without any sort of warning or any sort of ability to understand happened what did you guys do with Kathy Griffin when she was saying she wanted the names of those.
Young kids we’re in the mag hats at the Covington high school camps that’s right it’s a great example Joe so in that Single Occurrence particular case you know our doxxing policy really focuses on posting private information which we don’t consider names to be private we consider your home address your home from your home phone number your mobile phone number those types of to be private so in that Occurrence Crossword particular case we took what I think now is probably a very literal interpretation of our policy and so that was not a daxing incident do you think that was an error I think that it was short-sighted and given the context of what was going on there that if I was doing this all over again I would probably ask my team to look at that through the lens of what was the purpose behind that tweet and if the purpose was in fact to identify these kids to either doxa them or abusing harass them which it probably was then we should be taking a more expansive view of that policy and including that type of content especially considering the fact they’re minors I would think that right away that would violate the approach so this is a trial and error sort of learn and.
And move on with new information sort of a deal absolutely we’re gonna learn we’re gonna make a ton of mistakes we’re trying to do this with hundreds millions of accounts all around the world numerous languages we’re gonna make mistakes even if we get better there will always be mistakes but we’re hoping to learn from those and to make ourselves better and to catch cases like Tim’s or others where we clearly may have made an error and I’m open to having those discussions not I’m sorry Tim familiar with your specific cases but I’d love to follow up with you and we tend to pull it up so it’s a bi te ly slash an tyfa tweet all lowercase then this is also an evolution in prioritization as well one of the we’ve come to recently is we do need to we do need to prioritize these efforts both in terms of policy and enforcement however thinking about evolving them one of the that we want to focus as number one is Business Environment physical safety and thus lead you immediately to something like daxing and right now the only way we take action on a dachshund case is if it’s reported or not what we want to.
Move is to be able to recognize those in real time at least in the english recognize those in real time through our machine learning algorithms and take the action before it has to be reported so we’re focused purely right now on going after dachshund cases with our algorithms so that we can be proactive that also requires a much more rigorous appeals process to correct us when we’re but we think it’s tightly scoped enough it impacts the most important thing which is someone’s Bbc Bitesize physical safety once we learn from that we can really look at the biggest issue with our system right now is all the burden is placed upon the victim so we only act based on reports we don’t show a lot of enforcement especially with more of the more of the takedowns that are run through a machine learning algorithm deep learning algorithm but if something is reported a human does review it eventually or are there a series of reports that you never get to there’s probably reports we don’t I mean we prioritize the queue based on severity and the thing that one.
Mark severity is something like Office Environment physical safety or private information or not so generally we try to get through everything but we have to prioritize that queue even coming in so if someone threatened the lives of someone else would you banned that account would you tell them like let’s say someone tweeted three times kill these people I want them dead three times is that yes that’s a violation you didn’t ban him though Jamie that’s uh I don’t know I don’t necessarily want to give out specific usernames because then that people just point the finger at me and say I’m getting these people banned but yeah you know during Covington this guy said multiple times – he wanted his followers to go and kill these kids yeah and we have to look at that but we also look in the context because we also have I think we talked about this a little bit in the last podcast but we have gamers on the platform who are saying exactly that to their friends that they’re going to meet at the game in the game tonight and without the context of that relationship without the context of the conversation that we’re having we.
Take the exact same action on them incorrectly yeah absolutely that understand I think in the case of Covington though this user was so high-profile he’s a verified user he’s got something like 20,000 followers and it was highlighted by numerous conservative media outlets saying wow this guy’s screenshotted it’s being shared I mean you had a disney producer in like saying a picture of the wood chipper with a body being thrown in it saying that’s what he wanted to happen you know I do know that some of these accounts got lodged isn’t he producer was that well I’ll clarify fact check me on that but that’s basically the conversation that was had there’s a guy Disney was he posted a picture from Fargo of someone being tossed in a wood chipper and he says I want all these manga kids you know done like this you had another guy who specifically said lock them in the school burn it down said a bunch of disparaging and then said if you see them fire on them and he tweeted that more than once and that those accounts were those tweets were taken down those were violations of our rules.
I’m pretty sure it’s actually illegal to do that right it’s to tell your any individual to commit a felony is a crime like right incitement of violence I serve in many places I just have to wonder how I understand the context issue but this is what this is what I talk what was common scale too though right but Tim those accounts were auctioned they may not have been action the way you wanted them to but the tweets were forced to be deleted and that camera shows a penalty for that so I understand that penalty well again as I said earlier Joe we don’t usually automatically suspend accounts with one violation because we want people to learn we want people to understand what they did wrong and give them an opportunity not to do it again right and it’s a big thing to kick someone off the platform and I take that very seriously so I want to make sure that when someone creates our rules they understand what happened and they’re given an opportunity to you know get back on the platform and change their behavior and so in many of these cases what happens is we will force someone to acknowledge that their tweet violated.
Our rules force them to delete that tweet before they can get back on the platform and in many cases if they do it again we give them a timeout which is like seven days when we say look you’ve done it again it’s a temporary suspension if you do a timeout you’re a and you monitor and if you do it again then you’re done so it’s kind of like you know three strikes so sort of like baseball and so in some of these cases that Tim is referencing I have to imagine cuz these sweets were deleted they are violations of our rules people are upset that the account came back again and was allowed to say other but we did take action on those streets they were violations and then you have people like Milo who was mean to a person and delete you banned him permanently there’s more I’m happy to talk about Milo and I actually brought the tweets because so let’s preface that by saying the point I want to make sure clear is that you had somebody who actively called for the death of people I understand the context issue maybe he’s talking about video games probably talk some scale and scale.
So this is a verified user and it’s not just the complexity and enacting not an excuse for why we didn’t do it in particular right and then there are a lot of other examples too like in to more egregious areas that I’ve prepared so here we have someone with over 20,000 followers he’s verified numerous times incites his followers to commit a crime against these kids the action taken against him is believed the tweets you get a suspension you get timeout then you have people like Piers Morgan alex jones who berated a CNN reporter permanently banned you get Miley innopolis he was mean permanently banned but that’s your impression that’s not what happened okay let’s do this one at a time let’s start with Milo what was the details of so Milo had a number of tweets that violated our rules going back to 2014 but I’m going to talk about the final three in this research concept he claimed to be a BuzzFeed reporter in his bio and he’s a verified account so that is impersonation I’m not sure why he did that he did do that well BuzzFeed’s a left-wing thing so he was doing parody potentially but our parody rules are very specific that if.
You have an account that’s me being as a parody account you need to say that it is a parody account right people everybody who knows Milo would know that he’s not a BuzzFeed reporter but people who don’t know Milo will look at that it wasn’t verified after a while you removed his verification he violated our rules or a certification so the viable via the verification was removed because of the BuzzFeed thing I believe so I can confirm that I believe so he also docked someone he posted private information about an individual so that was the second one mm-hmm he tweeted to somebody else if you were my child I’d have dashed her head on a rock and tried again which we viewed as a threat really mm-hmm that seems like he’s saying like your mom should have swallowed you know it’s like you know I’m saying he’s like you’re a mistake that’s a threat I understand what reasonable people would have different impressions this I’m just going through and telling you what they are just really have all the facts debate them and then the last one we found a bunch of that he posted that we viewed as incitement of abuse against Leslie Jones so there’s a bunch.
Of them but the one that I like to look at which really convinced me is he posted two doctored tweets that were supposedly by Leslie Jones they were fake tweets the first one said white people are getting on my nerves like how can you call yourself human and then the second one said the goddamn slur for a Jewish person at Sony ain’t paid me yet dan Bicks nude better pay up so this was just a fake tweet that someone had photoshopped to fake tweets and we know they were faked because we could still tell from the software and then they were faked is you can’t always tell so it is possible that he didn’t know they were faked it’s possible someone sent it to him and he didn’t do his due diligence and looking it up and it is possible but it was pointed out to him that they were fake because he left it on and not only did he leave it on he said don’t tell me some mischievous Internet rascal made them up exclamation point so this in the context of a bunch of other he was saying towards Leslie Jones on Twitter I and my team felt that this was taken as a whole incitement of harassment against her wasn’t there another issue with multiple.
Accounts that were connected to him there were a bunch of other issues on the background but these are the three primary that we looked at in terms of the other that were in the background with a multiple accounts that were connected to him like I think that I’m not sure about that Joe I think it was more that we found him to be engaging in coordinated behavior and inciting people to attack Leslie Jones now with a case with like him no I’m just gonna be honest what I’m listening to those or listening to read those tweets out they don’t sound that bad and they certainly don’t sound bad as calling for the death of a child was wearing a maggot hat throw him into a wood chipper the fact that guy still out there tweeting and yet not Milo’s initial the whole thing stemmed from other than the BuzzFeed thing stemmed from his legitimate criticism of a film and he’s you know he’s a satirist he was mocking this film the daxing incident wasn’t related why don’t we all agree that daxing is something that should take action hundred percent Retton.
People in real life and I take an enormous amount of responsibility for that because I fear Daly for the that are happening on the platform that are translating into the real world so Milo is a contentious figure and there’s certainly you can pull up that I wouldn’t agree with anything he did there I think those are horrible I think Joe brought some really good points but what about Chuck Johnson why was Chuck Johnson banned I don’t have those details in front of me Chuck Johnson said that he was preparing something to take out DeRay McKesson and in the journalistic context people take this to mean he was going to do a dossier or some kind of hit piece under a his permanently banned and my understanding and it’s been a long time since I’ve read this there was some leaked emails I think from Dick Costolo where he said maybe it wasn’t Dec I want a dragged dick I don’t know who it was exactly they said I don’t care just get rid of him and he was off so you have and again maybe there’s some hidden context there I don’t know but on surface the concern is that this is always leaning towards the left oh it absolutely is and.
I’m I’m not even getting started yeah I can understand why you feel that way I don’t think that’s true I think we look at each individual instance of violations or our rules and try to make the best case that we can well not trying and I do think Jo just to say I do think we’ve failed in a couple of ways and I want to admit that number one we haven’t done enough education about what it rules are because a lot of people violate our rules and they don’t even know it like some of the statistics that we’ve looked at like for a lot of first-time users of the platform if they violate the rule once almost two-thirds of them never violate the rules again so we’re not talking about like a bunch of people accidentally like if they know what the rules are most people can avoid it and most people when they feel the sting of a violation they go okay I don’t want to lose my rights to post exactly and they’re able to do it so we have a lot of work to do on education so people really understand what the rules are in the first place the other thing we have do to address these allegations that we’re doing this from a biased.
Perspective is to be really clear about what types of behavior are caught by our rules and what types are not and to be transparent within the product so when a particular tweet is found to be in violation of our rules being very clear like this tweet was found to be in violation of this particular rule and that’s all work that we’re doing is we think the combination of Education and transparency is really important particularly for an open platform like Twitter it’s just part of who we are and we have to build it into the product I appreciate that your particular thoughts though on those examples that he described when he talking about someone saying he should throw these children into a wood chipper versus Chuck Johnson saying he should take this guy he wants to prepare a dossier to take this guy out or how did he say it he said something like I’m gonna take out DeRay McKesson with he said I’m preparing to take out Eric something like that I can’t preparing know I can understand it could be misconstrued as he was trying to assassinate him right you could misconstrue with that but not a direct but the other ones a.
Direct threat one guy is banned for life the other guy is still post and we can I’m happy to follow up I just don’t have all the Chuck Johnson it’s not about one thing is it it’s about a pattern and practice of violating rules and we don’t want to kick someone off for one thing but if there’s a pattern in practice like there was from Milo we are gonna have to take action at some point because we can’t sit back and let people be abused harassed and silenced on the problem well so one really important thing that needs to be stated is that Twitter by definition is a biased platform in favor of the left period it’s not a question I understand you might have your own interpretation but it’s very simple conservatives do not agree with you on the definition of misgendering if you have a rule in place that specifically adheres to the left ideology you by default are enforcing from a biased perspective what’s him there are a lot of people on the Left who don’t agree with how we’re doing our job either for sure and those people think that we don’t take enough action on abuse harassment and we let far too.
Much behavior go anything but that’s a radical example though I mean what he’s talking about I mean in terms of generalities that in general lean far more left would you agree that I don’t know what that means but in this Ethical Problems particular case it’s how the speech is being used that this is a new vector of attack that people have felt that I don’t want to be on this platform anymore because I’m being harassed abuse and I need to get the hell out well people harass and abused me all day and I don’t do anything about that my note efficacious permanently locked at 99 you have a worse than do I mean you got substantially more followers and I don’t click the notification tab anymore because it’s basically just harassment and I even when so this is a really funny anecdote I was covering a story in Berkeley and someone said if you see attack him like it was I’m paraphrasing they said basically to swing at me take my stuff steal from me and Twitter told me after review was not a violation of their policy somebody made an allusion to me being a homosexual and I reported that instantly gone so when I show so for me I’m.
Looking I’m like well of course Twitter is going to enforce the social justice aspect of their policy immediately in my opinion probably because you guys have PR constraints and you’re probably nervous about that but when someone actually threatens me with a crime and incites their followers to do it nothing got done I’m not the only one who feels that way what Tim that’s a if someone acts in that manner and threatens to hurt you that’s a violation of our rules right maybe there was a mistake there and I’m happy to go and correct that and we can do it offline so we don’t fear any sort of reprisal against you but that’s a mistake that’s not an agenda on my part or in the team spark would this be I don’t know of any PR constraints that is not so why did you ban Bohemian Grove alex jones do you want to get into that absolutely sure all right well let me say this the reason I bring him up is that Oliver Darcy one of the lead reporters covering David Icke alex jones and his content said on CNN that it was only after media pressure did these social networks take action so that’s why I bring him up specifically because it.
Sort of implies you were under your constraints to get rid of him I think if you look at the PR that’s what I went through in that incident it wouldn’t be that we looked good in it you have and that’s not at all why we took action you have to look at the full context in the spectrum there because one of the that happened over a weekend is what Alex mentioned on your podcast with him he was removed from the iTunes podcast directory that was the that was the lynchpin for him because it drove all the traffic to what he said basically zero immediately after that we saw our pure company’s Facebook Spotify YouTube also take action we did not we did not because when we looked at our service and we looked at the reports on their service we did not find anything in violation of our rules then we got into a situation where suddenly a bunch of people were reporting content on our platform including CNN who wrote an article about all the that might violate our rooms rules that we looked into and we gave him one of the other warnings and then we can get into the actual details but yeah we did not follow we resisted just being.
Like a domino with our peers because it wasn’t consistent with our rules and with the contract we put in before our customers so what was it that made you ban so there were three separate incidents that came to our attention after the fact that were reported to us by different users there was a video that was uploaded that showed a child’s being violently thrown to the ground and crying so that was the first one the second one was a video that we viewed as incitement of violence I can read it to you it’s a little it’s a little bit of a transcripts um but now it’s time to act on the enemy before they do a false flag I know the Justice Department’s crippled a bunch of followers and cowards but groups there’s grand juries there’s you called for it it’s time politically economically judiciously legally and criminally to move against these people it’s got to be done now get together the people you know traitors cowards aren’t helping their frickin bets hedging their bets like all these other assholes do go let’s do it so people need to have their and then there’s a bunch of.
Other stuff but at the end so people need to have their battle rifles ready and everything ready at their bedsides and you’ve got to be ready because the media is so disciplined in their deception so this is you’re saying that this is a call to violence against the media that’s what it sounded like to us at the time and there have been a number incidents of violence against the media and again I take my responsibility for what happens on a platform and how that translates off platform very seriously and that felt like it was an incitement of I know if he only tweeted the incitement to violence he would’ve been fine if he only if he only tweeted that trends posted that transcript saying get your battle fire rifles ready you wouldn’t have deleted his account again context matters Tim it’s not about one thing so we’d have to look at the entire context of what’s going on so I’m asking was that egregious enough for you to say alone that wasn’t number two right so then I guess the question is what was the video context of the kid being thrown to the ground was it newsworthy we obviously didn’t.
Think so and depicting violence against a child is not something that we would allow on the platform even if it’s news content if it was there are certain types of situations where if you were reporting on you know war zone and that might be happening we would put an interstitial on that type of content that’s graphic or violent but we didn’t feel that was the context here well so there’s a video that’s been going around that was going around few four or five weeks ago the one where the girls were yelling at that big giant guy and the guy punched that girl in the face and she was like 11 years old I saw that multiple times on Twitter that was one of the most violent that were seeing this giant man punched this eleven-year-old girl in the face and that was that removed from Twitter I don’t know I would have to go see if anyone reported it to us I think one of the issues here to is know you want me get to the third one yeah so the third strike that we looked at was a verbal altercation that Alex got into with a journalist and in that altercation there were which was uploaded to Twitter there were a number.
Of statements using eyes of the rat even more evil looking person he’s just scum or a virus to America and freedom smelling like a possum that climbed out of the rear end of a dead cow you look like a possum that got caught doing some really nasty stuff in my view there was a bunch of that’s enough really that’s hilarious pattern in practice but it was a verbal altercation that was posted on your ass oh so we took the totality of this I’ve been warned that we have rules against abuse and harassment of individuals we saw this pattern in practice one two strike three strikes and we made a decision to permanently and so that last one was on periscope is that what it was that he broadcast through I think it was originally on periscope but it was also reposted from multiple related accounts onto Twitter so we can agree with when you say these like you know Alex said this it sounds like a threat he was berating this person saying awful but ultimately your judgement is the contact you say we have to pay attention the context we’re just trusting that you made the right.
Decision well I’m giving you as much fast as I can give you here and I think that this is the real hard part of content moderation at scale on global platforms it’s not easy and I don’t think Jack or I would tell you that easy it’s an imposter assume you guys have to deal with and that’s one of the ones that I wanted to get into with Jack when I first had him on because when my thought and I wasn’t as concerned about the censorship as many people were my main concern was what is it like to start this thing that’s kind of for fun and then all of a sudden it becomes the premier platform for free speech on the planet Earth so let me just it is that but it’s also a platform that’s used to abusing harass a lot of people and used in ways that none of us want it to be used but unless it happens do so and I think it’s an enormous ly complicated challenge for any company to do content moderation at scale and that’s something that we are sitting down thinking about how do we take this forward because this is it go so let’s take the other context now we’ve heard what you said why what Radio Station alex jones did was bad and now we can look at it this way.
Oliver Darcy who has on numerous occasions insulted conservatives recently on CNN called them gullible being sold red and meat by grifters repeatedly covers a story I’m gonna do air quotes because I think to an extent he’s allowed to cover these stories he keeps going after Radio Stations alex jones he keeps digging through his history then he goes on TV and says we got him banned then Joe Rogan alex jones confronts him in a very aggressive and mean way and that’s your justification for it or I should say I invert the timeline basically you have someone who’s relentlessly digging through stuff insulting you know calling you names sifting through your history trying to find anything they can to get you terminated going on TV even writing numerous stories you confront them and say you’re evil and you say a bunch of really awful mean and then you ban him right so when you post that information and all over the Internet right but you have a journalist who recently went on TV and said CPAC is a bunch of gullible conservatives being fed red meat buy grifters you can tell this guy’s not got honest an honest.
Agenda so what you have it to me it looks like the Conservatives to an extent probably will try and mass flag people on the left but from an ideological standpoint you have the actual you know whatever people want to call it sect of identitarian left that believe free speech is a problem that have literally shown up in Berkeley burning free speech signs and then you have conservatives who are tweeting mean and the Conservatives are less likely in I think it’s fair to point out less likely to try and get someone else banned because they like playing off them and the left is targeting them so you end up having disproportion a lot of assumptions and what you’re saying and I don’t know what basis you’re saying those I mean you have conservatives demanding free speech and you have liberals I shouldn’t say liberals you have what people refer to as the regressive left calling for the restrictions on speech you have these I don’t know what those terms mean to be honest with you we have people on all sides of the spectrum who believe in free speech and I’m I believe that to be the case so your platform restricts.
Speech our platform promotes speech unless people violate our rules and in a specific direction in any direction but uncle I don’t want to say his name the guy who calls for death gets a suspension the guy who insinuates that gets a permanent ban but Tim you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying and I feel like you’re doing it deliberately it’s not about one particular thing it’s about a pattern and practice of violating you have shattered and practice of banning only one faction of people recently published an article where they looked at 22 high-profile bandings from 2015 and found 21 of them were only on one side of the cultural debate but I don’t look at the political spectrum of people when I’m looking at their to write you have a yes they are you’re biased and targeting specific individuals because your rules support this perspective no well so can you be clear though and like what rules support that person specifically the easiest one is misgendering right because that’s so clearly ideological if you ask a conservative what is misgendering.
They’ll say if someone is biologically male and you call them you know a biological man you called a machine that’s miss gender as a conservative view the progressive view is inverted so now you actually have in your policies a rule against the conservative perspective I have a rule against the abuse and harassment of trans people on our platform that’s what at my rules we just give context in the background I know why that is and I brought some research so we obviously received a lot of feedback so we don’t make these rules in a vacuum it just to be clear we have a bunch of people all around the world who give us context and the types of behavior they’re seeing how that translates into real-world harm and they give us feedback and they tell us like you should consider different types of rules different types of perspectives different like for example when we try to enforce hateful conduct in our hateful conduct policy in a particular country we’re not going to know all the slur words that are used to target people of a particular race or a particular religion so we’re going to.
Rely on building out a team of experts all around the world who are going to help us enforce our rules so in the Higher Court particular case of misgendering I’m just trying to pull up some of the studies that we looked at but we looked at the American Association of Pediatrics and looked at the number of transgender youths that were committing suicide it’s an astronomical I’m sorry I can’t find it right now in front of me it’s a really high statistic that’s like 10 times what the normal suicide rate is of normal teenagers and we looked at the causes of what that was happening and a lot of it was not just violence towards those individuals but it was bullying behavior and was what were those bullying behaviors that were contributing to that and that’s why we made this rule because we thought and we believed that those types of behaviors were happening on our platform and we wanted to stop it now there are exceptions to this rule we don’t and this is all it this isn’t about like public figures and there’s always gonna be public figures that you’re gonna want to talk about and that’s it’s fine but this is about are you.
Doing something with the intention of abusing and harassing a trans person on the platform and are they viewing it that way and reporting it to us so that we take action so I will just state I actually agree with the rule I’m from you know my point of view I agree that bullying and harassing trans people is entirely wrong I disagree with it but I just want to make sure it’s clear to everybody who’s listening my point is simply that you know ben shapiro went on a talk show and absolutely refused and that’s his shake you know and he’s one of the biggest podcasts in the world so if you have all of his upon millions of followers who are looking at this rule saying this goes against my view of the world and it’s literally 60 plus million in this country you do have a rule that’s ideologically bent and it’s true you did the research you believe this well then you have been shapiro who did his research and believe it and I relied on the American Association of Pediatrics and you know Human Rights Council another and I’m sure he has his sources too for when he gives his statements the point is he’s.
Wonder if they have that context I mean and that’s where we have also fits it’s always just explaining the why behind a lot of our policy reasons I would agree and I think it’s fine you did research and you found this to be true but we can’t simply say maybe ben shapiro and the other conservatives who feel this way don’t know we have to wait we can’t you know the point i’m trying to make is it’s simply whether you believe it but whether you justified or is not the point is you do have this that rule is at odds with conservatives period well I think that you’re generalizing but I think it is really important as Jack said to the why behind these the why is to protect people from abuse and harassment on our pot I understand but you essentially created a protected class if this is the case because despite these studies and what you know these studies are showing there’s a gigantic suicide rate amongst trans people period it’s a forty percent it’s outrageously large now whether that is because of gender dysphoria with us because of the complications from sexual sexual.
Transition surgery whether it’s because of bullying whether it’s because of this awful feeling of being born in the wrong gender whether all that is yet to be determined the fact that they’ve shown that there’s a large amount of trans people that are committing suicide I don’t necessarily think that makes sense in terms of people from someone’s perspective like a ben shapiro saying that if you are biologically female if you were born with a double x chromosome you will never be XY if he says that that’s a violation of your policy and this is you’re creating a protected class to be fair press that opinion she was easily entitled to express that opinion if he’s doing in a manner that’s targeted at an individual repeatedly and saying that okay but you know what’s going on with martina navratilova right now martina navratilova why am can I say her last name neither yeah never tried on’t think i’ve ever martina navratilova is it tall troll over anyway epic world class but legend tennis player right who happens.
To be a lesbian is being harassed because she says that she believe that trans women means someone who is biologically male who transitions to a female should be able to compete in sports against biological females this is something that I agree with this is something I have personally experienced a tremendous amount of harassment because I stood up when there was a woman who was a trans woman who was fighting biological females in mixed martial arts fights and destroying these women and I was saying what you just watch this and tell me this look crazy to you well I got good well my point is you should be able to express yourself in if you say that you believe someone is biologically male even though they identify as a female that’s a perspective that should be valid I mean that this is someone’s this is first of all it’s biologically correct so we have a problem in that if your standards and your policies are not biologically accurate then you’re dealing with an ideological you know an ideological policy and just because mean I don’t want to target trans people I don’t want to.
Harass them I certainly I’ll call anybody whatever they want I mean if you want to change your name to a woman’s name and identify as a woman I’m a hundred percent cool with that but by saying I don’t think that you should be able to compete as a woman this opens me up for harassment now I never ordered any of it I just don’t pay attention to it but in going into like Tim Matheson megan murphy for instance right you can call that target harassment if Eleanor Calder megan murphy who is for those that are don’t know she’s a radical feminist who refuses to use the transgender pronouns if she’s in an argument with a trans person over whether or not they should be allowed in sports or in biologically female spaces and she refuses to use their pronoun because of her ideology you’ll ban them again it depends on the context on the platform and it’s also I want not banned permanently like you get one she was banned permanently but let’s say she was warned about what happened to me what did she actually do my understanding and I don’t have the by tweet the way that I did for the others but my understanding is that she was warned multiple times for.
Misgendering an individual that she was in an argument with and this individual is actually bringing a lawsuit against her in Canada as well so it is you have an argument between two people again and you have a rule that enforces only one side of the ideology and you’ve banned only one of those people we have a rule that attempts to address what we have perceived to be instances of abuse or harassment ideology is an ideology right if she’s saying a man is never a woman if that’s what she’s saying and then biologically she’s correct we obviously have a debate here this is not a clear-cut this is not something like you can say water is wet you know this is dry it’s and this is not like something you could prove this is something where you have to acknowledge that there’s an understanding that if someone there’s a trans person we all agree to consider them a woman and to think of them as a woman talk to them and address them with their preferred name and their preferred pronouns but biologically this is not accurate so we have a divide here we have a divide between the conservative estimation of what’s happening and then.
The definition that’s the liberal definition of it I think that’s right Joe and I think what I’m trying to say is that it’s not that you can’t have those viewpoints it’s a if you’re taking those viewpoints and you’re targeting about them at a specific person in a way that reflects your intent to abuse and harass them what if it’s in the context of the conversation what if she’s saying that I don’t think that trans women should be allowed in these female spaces to make decisions for women and then this person’s arguing and she says a woman is biologically female you are never going to be a woman she responded with men aren’t women though and that was her first in the series of events that’s what got her the suspension in the warning that was one of many tweets that were part of providing context and that was actually the second actually strike is my understanding but why is that a strike yeah why is that a strike that but again like it’s the context of I don’t have all the tweets in front of me there were like 10 or 12 tweets going back and forth mm-hmm and my understanding is in that context all of those she was.
Misgendering a particular person not that she was holding a purse wasn’t it I don’t know it was so you know you’re having an individual who was debating a high profile individual in her community and she’s expressing her ideology of versus hers and you have opted to ban one of those ideologies it’s within the context of this conversation yes this what is being debated whether or not someone is in fact a woman when they were born a male I understand that this is controversial I do especially to a radical feminist I understand why people would not agree with the role but that being said it is a rule on our platform and once you’re warned about the rule to repeatedly post the same content is also going to be a violation of our rules rabbit the rule it’s this seems like a good example of an ideologically based rule yours if she’s saying that a man is never a woman though that is not in that context harassment that is a very specific opinion that she has that happens to be biologically accurate now I don’t you know I don’t agree with targeting harassment on anybody and I did.
Harassment on trans people or straight people or when I don’t agree with it I don’t think you should do it just it’s not something I want to do but in this context what she’s saying is not just her expression but it’s accurate I think an important point is if I tweet it to jo-jo you are not a hamster that’s clearly not a violation of the rules however there are identify as a hamster well no it wouldn’t be clear because I know people who have specifically begun using insults of animals to avoid getting kicked off the platform for breaking the rules certain individuals have been suspended now use certain small woodland creatures in place of slurs so they’re not really insulting you and it’s fine but there are people who consider themselves trans-species now I’m not trying to belittle the trans community by no means I’m just trying to point out that you have a specific rule for one set of people and they’re so there are people who have general body dysphoria you don’t have rules on that there are people who have actually amputated their own arms you don’t have rules on that you have a very specific.
Rule set and in more importantly in the context of a targeted conversation I can say a whole bunch of that would never be considered a rule break but that one which is ideologically driven yeah thank you for the feedback I mean we’re again always learning and trying to understand different people’s perspectives and all I’ll say is that our intent is not to police ideology our intent as to police behaviors that we view as abuse movement harassment and I hear your point of view and it’s something that I’ll definitely discuss with my team and even in this case it wasn’t just a going against this particular rule but also that were more ban evasive as well including taking a screenshot of the original tweet reposting it which is against her our Terms sir well that sounds so it’s more objections it sounded like a protest against your rule but I understand you could ban them for it but people can protest any of our rules we can’t like let them do that no I understand we were saying but I just want to make sure I point out she was clearly doing it as an effort to push back on what she viewed as an.
Ideologically driven rule well this is that the problem this is a real debate in the LGBT community this is a debate where there is a division and there’s a division between people think that trans women are in evading biological female spaces and making decisions that don’t benefit these biological females cisgender whatever you want to call them this is an actual debate and it’s a debate amongst progressive people amongst left-wing people and it’s a debate amongst liberals this is mean I would imagine the vast majority of people in the LBGT community are in fact on the left and this is one example of that so you have a protected class that’s having an argument with a woman who feels like there’s an ideological bent to this conversation that is only not accurate but not fair and she feels like it’s not fair for biological women the same as Martina well Allah take this to its logical conclusion I got sent a screenshot from somebody and maybe it’s faked I think it was real they were having an argument with someone on Twitter and responded with dude , you don’t know blah blah.
Blah and they got a suspension and a lockout had delete the tweet because the individual using a cartoon avatar with the eight with the nickname apparently with Sam reported it and said that I’m transgender and he’s calling me dude and the dude and the Twitter user actually got a suspension for it so I could understand mistakes happen but when you have a rule that’s like that there’s colloquial terms that are like man come on don’t say that dude is like we say like I asked you guys when you were gonna take a photo in front of this thing I said guys but I included you and didn’t I wasn’t offended you and I we’re never reported you for it thank you yeah it’s tricky but in this case of Cliff Judy megan murphy that’s her name right yeah I did that make any sense to me that seems like she should be allowed to express herself in and this is not being she’s not being mean by saying a man is never a woman this is a perspective just that is scientifically accurate and that’s part of the problem think I just don’t want run to beating a dead horse so think I want to it’s a really important thing to go.
Over all the nuances of this particular subject because I think that one in particular highlights this idea of where the problems lie and having a protected class and I think should be compassionate we have a lot of protected classes gender race nationality look these are the protector it’s not for white people when you say gender or race when it’s not all protected categories so you can’t attack someone for their belonging to a particular race or a particular religion only you can mock white people ad nauseam it’s not a problem it get removed I’m not talking about mocking I’m talking about abusing and harassing but I mean if you mock a black person in the same way it would be considered targeted racism again it’s about targeted harassment on the platform well target Rassman I mean but when you’re okay look if you have what racism is racism only I mean there’s this progressive perspective of racism that it’s only possible if you’re from a more powerful class it’s only punching down that’s the only racism I don’t think that makes any sense I think racism is looking at someone.
That is from whatever race and deciding that they are in fact or less worthy or less valuable whatever it is that takes place across the platform against white people now I’m not saying white people need to get protected I know it’s easier being a white person in America the fact but it’s hypocritical to have a policy that only distinguishes you can make fun of white people all day long but if you decide to make fun of Asian folks or you know fill in the blank that is racist but making fun of white people isn’t and it get removed there are tons of chuckling about sarah jong from the new Review New york times that’s a well I can actually explain that one please do that was my understanding is that you guys started banning people officially under these policies around 2015 and most all the tweets she made was prior to that and so you didn’t enforce the old yeah so our hateful conduct policy judges to be clear is across the board meaning like it just protect women and protects men and women it protects all races it matter and this is how the law is set up in the Marine Corps united states right you can’t discriminate against.
White men you can’t discriminate against black men like those are the laws right like that’s the structure is it take into consider so if someone says something about white people and mocks white people on Twitter what you do about that if it’s harassment targeted at a person so John why pee in general if you say something about white people in general that’s not an issue well I mean we focus on targeted harassment which is behavior that is targeted against an individual who belongs to that class okay because if you try to police every opinion that people have about different races or religions thinking obviously that’s a very different story so this is about if you target that to somebody who belongs to that class and that’s reported to us that is a violation of our rules and so in the Sarah Jeon case a lot we did see many tweets of nature that were focused on people who were white or men and our rules in this area came into effect in 2015 which was our hateful conduct policy and a lot of those tweets were from a time period where those rules weren’t enough and in.
Her defense she was actually supposedly responding to people that have you don’t believe that come on over three years and she’s tweeting blankets yes sure but so I will say – obviously I’ve done it my one point so in that case there were tweets from before the rules went into effect and tweets from after the rules went into effect and we did take action on the tweets from after the rules went into she’s also pretty young but right so I want to point yeah she’s in her 20s yeah so we’re talking about something that might have happened eight years ago right 20 it was like 2011 but I do want to point this out before coming on I’ve obviously did it I did a decent amount of research I searched for slurs against white black people Latinos and I found copious just and tons of them now they don’t go back most of what I found didn’t go back too far cause it does seem like you guys are doing your best but there’s a lot and it targets white black Jewish people it’s everywhere and I can understand that guys you got hundreds of millions but let’s try another subject just to address.
That point and I think Jack talked about this a little bit like this is where right now we have a system that relies on people to report it to us which is a huge burden on people and especially if you’re happen to be a high profile person and Tim you would understand this you’re not gonna sit there and report every tweet and Joe you understand this story like it’s not worth your time you’re not gonna go through a by tweet as people respond to you and report it people tell us this all the time so this is where we have to start getting better at eye identifying when this is happening and taking action on it without waiting for somebody to tell us it’s out but using an algorithm though do you not miss context I mean it seems to me that there’s a lot of people that say in humor you know the or slurs within particular communities which is perfectly reasonable right so yes there is a danger of the algorithm is missing context and that’s why we really want to go carefully into and this is why we scoped it down first and foremost to doxing which is at least first it’s our number one goal.
Protecting Ict Room physical safety like making sure that nothing done online will impact someone’s Trip Hazards physical safety Holland offline on our platform in this case the second is that there are patterns around daxing that are much easier to see without having the context there are exceptions of course because you could Docs someone’s public you know a representatives public office phone number and email address and the algorithm might catch that not have the context that this is a u.s. representative and this information is already public so essentially this just it highlights how insanely difficult it is to monitor all of these posts and then what is the volume like what are we dealing with like how many posts do you guys get a day hundreds millions of posts a day and how many human beings are manually reviewing any of these I don’t have that number a lot thousands hundreds of thousands how many employees you guys we have 4,000 employees around the world that’s it yeah we have 4,000 employees the reason that’s crazy though but stop and think about that 4,000 people that are monitoring hundreds of.
Millions of tweets and we have a we have a we have a small team who’s monitoring tweets and some of them are employed by us some of them are contractors throughout the world so 4,000 employees total 4,000 employees who are engineers who are designers who are lawyers so the number of people actually monitoring tweets is probably less than a thousand well the reason we don’t give us specific okay just we need to scale these dynamically right if we see a particular event a within country we might hire a hundred more people on contract to deal whereas they may not be full-time and with us the entire tournament they have the ability to take down tweets they have the so as we get reports it goes into a queue and those are ranked by severity and then we have people who look at our rules and look at the look at the tweets and look at the behavior in the context around it and they have the ability to go down that enforcement spectrum the video talked about one make people log in read why it’s a violation over tweet and delete it to temporary suspensions and finally.
A permanent suspension which is the absolute last resort which we ultimately do not want to do we want to make sure that our rules are also guided towards incentivizing more healthy conversation and more participation so let me ask you the rules you have are not based in US law right US law recognize restrictions on First Amendment hate speech it’s considered free speech so if you wanna stand in a street corner and yell the craziest in the world you’re allowed to on your platform Twitter you’re not allowed to so even in that sense alone your rules do have an ideology behind them I don’t completely disagree I think you know I don’t want harassment but the reason I bring this up is getting into the discussion about democratic health of a nation so I think it’s it can’t be disputed at this point that Twitter is extremely powerful in influencing elections you know I’m pretty sure you guys published recently a bunch of tweets from foreign actors that were trying to meddle in elections so even you as a company recognize that foreign entities are trying to manipulate people using this platform so I there’s a few I want to ask me.
On this but if wouldn’t it be important then to just as at a certain point Twitter becomes so powerful in influencing elections and giving access to even the president’s tweets that you should allow people to use the platform based under the norms of US law First Amendment free speech right to expression on the platform this is becoming too much of a it’s becoming too powerful and how our elections are taking place so even if you are saying well Supreme Court hate speech is our rule and a lot of people agree with it if at any point one person disagrees they’re still an American who has a right to this you know access to the Witherspoon Institute public discourse and you’ve essentially monopolized that and not completely but for the most part so isn’t there some responsibility on you to guarantee at a certain extent less regulation happen right like look if you recognize Clinton Foundation foreign governments are manipulating our elections then shouldn’t you guarantee the right to an American to access this platform to be involved in the electoral process I’m not sure I see the time between those but I will address one of your points which is.
We’re not we’re a platform that serves the world so we’re a global seventy-five percent of the users of Twitter are outside of the Bankruptcy Court united states all right so we don’t apply laws of just one country when we’re thinking about it we think about how do you have a global standard that can meet the threshold of as many countries as possible because we want all the people in the world to be able to participate in conversations and also meet elections like the Indian election coming up as well right and I’m understanding is you were also accused of being biased against conservatives in India recently there was a report on that well as you held up a sign that said something offensive about the Brahmin yeah so in that sense even in other countries you’re accused of the same that you’re being accused of by American conservatives I think that the situations are very different and I don’t think that the ideologies in play are the same at all well so the reason I bring we clarify that I I’m not sure what you’re talking about but we did have our vice president public policy testify in front of Indian Parliament a couple of weeks.
Ago and he was they were really focused on election integrity safety abuse and harassment of women and political figures and the likes so my concern I guess is I recognize you’re a globe you’re a company that serves the world but as an American I have a concern that the democracy I live in the Democratic Republic I’m sorry and the democratic functions are healthy one of the biggest threats is you know near Russia Iran China they’re trying to meddle in our elections using your platform and it’s effective much so that you’ve actually come out and removed many people you know Covington was apparently started by a count based in Brazil you know the Covington scandal where this Washington Post fake news goes viral was reported by CNN that was a it was a dummy account they were trying to prop it up and they were pushing this out of context information so they do this they use your platform to do it you’ve now got a platform that is so power in our American discourse that Cabinet Members foreign governments are using it as weapons against us and you’ve taken a stance against the laws of New York united states I don’t mean against like you’re.
Breaking a lie mean you have rules that go beyond the scope of the US which will restrict United Latin american citizens from being able to participate meanwhile foreign actors are free to do so long as they play by your rules so our elections are being threatened by the fact that if there’s an American citizen who says I do not believe in your misgendering policy and you banned them that person has been removed from Racialized Frame public discourse on Twitter right but they don’t get banned for saying they don’t agree with it sure specifically violating it by targeting and in let’s say in protest an individual repeatedly says no I refuse to use your pronouns in like Meghan Murphy’s case and she’s Canadian so I don’t want to use her specifically the point I’m trying to make is at a certain level there are going to be Visa Requirements american citizens who have been removed from this Social Media public discourse which has become so absurdly powerful Hillary Clinton foreign governments weaponize it because you have different rules than the American country has so just to be clear my understanding and I’m not expert on all the platforms is that Economic Sanctions foreign governments use multiple.
Multiple different ways to interfere in elections it’s not limited to our platform nor is it limited to social media but the president is on twitter president is on a lot of different platforms as is the White House I think it’s fair to point out the media coverage of his Twitter account is insane and they run news stories every time you tweets and certainly undeniable I’m just pointing out that there are a number of different avenues for this and individuals have choices and how they use a platform yeah know you have other platforms but he uses Twitter exclusively and what I’m trying to bring up is that if Twitter refuses to acknowledge this problem you are facing regulation I don’t know if you care about that but at a certain point which problem if you’re going to restrict Living Abroad american citizens from participating on a platform where even the president speaks and it’s essentially you have a private privately owned public space if I could use an analogy that would be most apt and you’ve set rules that are not recognized by the US in fact when it came to a Supreme Court hearing they said hate.
Speech is not a violation it’s actually protected free speech so there’s an actual odds so there might be someone who says I refuse to live by any other means than what the Supreme Court is set down that means I have a right to Social Media hate speech you will ban them that means your platform is so powerful it’s being used to manipulate elections and you have rules that are not recognized by the government to remove Puerto Rico american citizens from that discourse so as a private platform you’ve become too powerful to not be if you refuse to allow people free speech but I’m trying to pick apart the connection I think so yes we do have an issue with foreign entities misinformation and this is a extremely complicated issue which we’re just beginning to understand grasp and take action on I don’t think that issue is solved purely by not being more aggressive on something else that is taking people off the platform entirely as well which is abuse and harassment like it it’s a cost-benefit analysis ultimately and our rules are designed again and you know they don’t.
Always manifest this way in the outcomes but in terms of what we’re trying to drive is opportunity for every single person to be able to speak freely on the platform and that’s absolutely not true you would don’t allow a lot of aid speech so free speech is not on your I said speakable everyone they create the opportunity for everyone to speak on our service unless they’ve all right it’s South Africa hate speech right and then part of that the recognition that we’re taking action on is that when some people encounter particular conduct that we see them wanting to remove themselves from the platform completely which goes against that principle of enabling everyone to speak or giving people the opportunity to speak so rules are focused on the opportunities presented and we have particular outcomes to make sure that those opportunities are so let’s separate the first that the point I made about Campaign Contributions foreign governments was just to explain the power that your platform holds and how can be weaponized well separate that now when antifoam to berkeley and bash as a guy over there.
With a bike lock that is suppressing his speech right that’s a fact of physical violence however when auntie fall links hands and blocks a door so that no one to an event that is also legally allowed right so what you’re saying is that if someone is engaging in behavior such as going on Twitter and shouting someone down relentlessly that’s something external to what happens in the world under the US government I am allowed to scream very close to you and not let you speak in public but on Twitter you don’t allow that so there’s a dramatic difference between what Twitter thinks is okay and what the US government thinks is okay our democracy functions and our Twitter functions the issue I’m pointing out is that we know Twitter is becoming extremely important in how our Neil Postman public discourse is occurring how our cultural culture is developing and who even gets elected so if you have rules that are based on a global policy that means Drone Strikes american citizens who are abiding by all of the laws of our country are being restricted from engaging in Doug Mainwaring public discourse because you’ve monopolized it can I counter that though because these.
Countertrade Requirements foreign governments are restricted by the same rules so if they violate those same rules they will be they would be removed so play within those rules they can participate in the discourse even if they are just trying to manipulate our elections on the other hand if the people that are on the platform play by those rules they can also counteract unless their ideology goes in line with US law and is legally allowed as opposed to what you allow so Official Representatives foreign governments can absolutely keep making new accounts and keep botting and keep manipulating they can even post that’ll go viral and then get banned and not care right but a private American citizen can say here’s my opinion I refuse to back down by series home you will ban him so we can see that at a certain point you have a lot you Twitter is slowly gaining in my opinion too much control from your personal ideology based on what you’ve researched what you think is right over American discourse you if Twitter and again this is my opinion I’m not a lawmaker but I would have to assume if Twitter refuses to say in the Health Care united states you are allowed to say what is.
Legally acceptable period then lawmakers only choice will be to enforce regulation on your company actually time I spent quite a bit of time talking to lawmakers as part of my role had a public policy I spend a lot of time in DC I want to say that Jack and I have both spent a lot of time in DC and I think from the perspective of lawmakers they across this back are also in favor of policing abuse and harassment online and bullying online those are that people care about because they affect their children and if they affect their communities and they affect individuals and so I don’t think that and as a private American business we can have different standards than what an American government-owned corporation or American government would have to institute those are two America but and I understand your point about the influence and I’m not denying that certainly Twitter is an influential platform but like anything whether it’s the American law or the rules of Twitter or the rules of Facebook or rules of any platform there are rules and those rules have to be followed so it is your choice.
Whether to follow those rules and continue to participate in a civic dialogue and this choice to not do that absolutely you’ve monopolized Alana Newman public discourse to an extreme degree and you say my way or the highway we are facing and we haven’t monopolized that there are many different avenues for people continue to have a voice there are many different platforms offer that we are largely influential and I’m not trying to take away from that and we’re a very important one you don’t need to be the most important it’s just that you are extremely important that’s and it’s a compliment twitter has become extremely powerful but at a certain point you should not have the right to control what people are allowed to say no private or I’m a social liberal I think we should regulate you guys because you are unelected officials running your system the way you see fit against the wishes of a Democratic Republic and there are people who disagree with you who are being excised from Amusing Ourselves public discourse because of your ideology that terrifies me and we can take it once that’s just so I understand so are you suggesting that we.
Don’t have any policies around abuse and harassment on the platform I’m trying to understand what it is you’re saying because I’m not sure I’m following so you don’t think we should have any rules about our abuse no harassment so even that the threats that you received that you know but you mentioned a number of threats that you received and you were quite frustrated that we hadn’t taken action on them you think we shouldn’t have roles that I’m frustrated because of the hypocrisy I’ll say when I see own I see the flow of one direction and then what I see are Republican politicians who in my opinion are just too ignorant to understand what the hell’s going on around them and I see people burning signs that say free speech I see you openly saying we recognize the power of our platform and we are not going to abide by American norms I see the manipulation of Twitter for in violation of our elections I see Democratic operatives in Alabama waging a false flag campaign using fake Russian accounts this and the guy who runs that company has not been banned from your platform even after.
It’s been written by the New Book Review york times he was doing this so we know that not only are people manipulating your platform you have rules that remove honest Pay Taxes american citizens with bad opinions who have a right to engage in Brad Downey public discourse and it’s like you recognize it but you like having the power I’m not quite sure get back to my point so you believe that Twitter should not have any rules about abuse and harassment or any sort of Amendment Protect hate speech on the platform that that’s your puzzle that’s a extremely reductive I don’t know that maybe too simplistic the point I’m trying to make is but you ain’t you’re trying make your you’re asking us to comply with the US law that would criminalize potential speech and put people in jail for it and you’re asking us to enforce those that’s traumatic well I mean if you incite death you will yes a crime you can go you can go to jail for that so at the very least could you like when you have people on your platform who committed crime you don’t ban them I say well that’s really weird and then you have people on your platform who say a bad naughty word you.
Do ban them I say well that’s really I mean I’ve seen people get banned for tweeting an end to you I understand what they’re trying to do when they tweet letters at you jack but they get suspended for and they get a threat you know like you can’t let’s looks like about learning to code what do you mean by that yeah so you know so there are people who know that they can tweet a single letter and the next person knows what letter they need to tweet you see I’m saying so you’ll see you know one user will say and the next user will put an eye the next user really yes and so they get suspended for doing so and these are the people who are trying to push the buttons on the rules right they get suspended for that absolutely so because I think see but here’s the thing I think your team understands what they’re doing however it get really dangerous territory if someone accidentally tweets an end and you assume they’re trying to engage in a harassment campaign which is why I said let’s talk about learn to code what we do look at coordination.
Of accounts or Delete Twitter direct messages I don’t know about Recover Deleted direct messages but under you re Turn Off direct messages we don’t really we don’t read them unless someone reports a direct message to us that they have received until you read their direct message that they send to you so if you have a direct message and someone says something terrible and then like you receive a death threat and you report that to us thank you then we would read it cuz you’ve reported it to us do does anyone in the company have access to Twitter Sending direct messages other than that only in the context again of reviewing reports that they’re accessible not to my knowledge I don’t know what you mean like we’re not accessible when tweeting them is it possible that someone could go into Tim’s Deleted Instagram direct messages and just read his Twitter App direct messages I don’t think so if Tim writes an N and I write an I and Jamie writes a G can you go into our Twitter Api direct messages and say hey let’s with Jack and we’re gonna write this stuff out and we’re gonna do it and let’s see if they ban us you can’t read that I don’t think so I know if that’s the case how would you know if.
There was a concerted effort in well I think what he’s saying is like if we do see those train of replies and that is coordination you know what people are doing yes the question is how do you prove it well I think beyond the N you know the first person with a letter you can’t prove he did it but everybody else you kind of can I don’t but I don’t think we would well I look like I can say this I’ve been sent numerous screenshots from people screenshots can be faked I recognize that but I have seen people actually tweet and then I’ve seen the tweet follow right after one yes someone tweeted at you someone decently high-profile a big youtuber tweeted an N at you and then got like a 12-hour suspension but let’s talk about learn to code right and why are people being suspended for tweeting hashtag learn to code yep we did some research on this yes we did some research on this so there was a situation and I guess about a month ago or so where a number of journalists were receiving a variety of tweets some containing learned to code some containing a bunch of other coded.
Language that was wishes of harm these were and thousands tweets being directed at a handful of journalists and we did some research and what we found was a number of the accounts that were engaging in this behavior which is tweeting at the journalists with this either learn to code or like day of the rope and other coded language were actually ban evasion accounts that means accounts that had been previously suspended and we also learned that there was a targeted campaign being organized off our platform to abuse and harass these journalists that’s not true see here’s the thing an activist who works for NBC wrote that story and then lobbied you issued an official statement and then even the editor-in-chief of the Daily Caller got a suspension for tweeting learned to code at the day at the Daily Show so I have never talked to anybody from NBC about this issue so I know so they report it don’t misrepresent me they report it the narrative goes far and wide amongst your circles then all of a sudden you’re seeing high-profile conservatives tweeting a joke getting suspensions so.
Again some of these tweets actually contained death threats wishes of harm other coded language that we’ve seen to mean death to journalists so it wasn’t about just the learn to code it was about the context that we were that’s just not true the editor-in-chief of The Daily Caller was suspended for tweeting nothing but hashtag learned to code sir Tim can I finish what I’m saying yeah so we were looking at the context and what was happening is there were journalists receiving hundreds of tweets some had death threats some had wishes of harm some just learned to code and in that particular context we made a decision we consider this type of behavior but dogpiling which is when all of a sudden individuals are getting and tons of tweets at them they feel very abused or harass on the mark we pause this guy super confusing for people who don’t know context the learned code thing is in response to people saying people that are losing their jobs like coal miners and truck drivers and like that could learn to code this it was almost like in jest initially or if it wasn’t in jest initially it was so.
Poorly thought out as a suggestion that people started mocking it right correct so those were the first stories that came out were simply like Ken miners learned to code no miners right and the hashtag learn to code is just a meme it’s not even necessarily a conservative one that you will see more conservatives using it was people are using it to mock how stupid the idea of taking a person who’s I know educators in their 50s who should learn some new form of vocation and then someone says learn to code and so then other people when they’re losing their job or when something’s happening people would write learn to code because it’s a mean well not even necessarily I would characterize learn to code as a meme that represents the elitism of modern journalists and how they target certain communities with disdain okay so to make that point there are people who have been suspended for tweeting something like I’m not too happy with how you know BuzzFeed reported the story hashtag learn to code right making representation of these people are snooty elites who live in ivory towers the but again you know this is a meme that has nothing to do with.
Harassment but you know it’s some people might be harassing somebody might tweet it why would we expect to see even still today I’m still getting messages from people with screenshots saying I’ve been suspended for using a hashtag and the editor in chief of the Daily Caller right took he quote tweeted a video from the Daily Show with hashtag learn to code and he got a suspension for it so why learn to code why is that alone so egregious and I don’t think it is egregious so it’s just something that’s stuck in an algorithm no it was again a specific set of issues that we were seeing targeting a very specific set of journalists and it wasn’t just learn to code it was a couple of going on a lot of the accounts tweeting learned to cone we’re ban evaders which means they’ll curiously been suspended a lot of the accounts had other language in them are tweets out other language like day of the brick day of the rope oven-ready these are all coded meanings for violence against people right so and they people who are receiving this we’re receiving hundreds of these and what appeared us to be a coordinated harassment campaign and so we were.
Trying to understand the context of what was going on and take action on them because again I don’t know Joe if you’ve ever been the target of a dogpiling event on Twitter but it is not particularly fun when thousands of people or hundreds of people are tweeting at you saying and that’s can be viewed as a form of Rassman it’s not about the individual tweet it is about the volume of that are being directed I don’t understand and so in that Crossword Clue particular case we made the judgment call and it is a judgement call to take down the tweets that were responding directly to these journalists that were saying learn to code even if they didn’t have a wish of harm specifically attached to them because of what we viewed as coordinated attempt to harass them and again like I was saying some of the other signals and coded language and we were worried that learned to code was taking on a different meaning I understand in that particular context so but in and of itself though it still seems like there’s alternative meanings learn to code it still could be used as Tim was saying to mock a lip you know elite.
Snooty picture to Paris yes absolutely I agree with you so it’s really about the context of what was happening in that situation and all those other I think in a very different situation we would not take action on that hmm okay but does not seem like you’re throwing a blanket over a very small issue and learn to code in itself is very small the blanket has cast over racism the blanket has cast over this all the other horrible that are attached to it but the horrible that are attached toward the real issue this learned the code thing is kind of a legitimate protest in people saying that these minors should learn to code that’s kind of preposterous the first articles weren’t mean it was just it the code kind of identified you have these journalists who are so far removed from Middle America that they think you can take a 50 year-old man who’s never used a computer before and put him in a row no but the stories I think we’re legitimate yes but the point more so it was a meme hashtag the idea of learn to code condenses this idea and it’s easy to communicate especially when you only have 22 characters that there.
Is a class of individual in this country I think you mentioned on was a Sam Harris that the these left liberal journalists only follow each other you know in the run-up to the 2015 2016 elections yeah and so mean I still believe that to be true I’ve worked in these offices it has changed they’ve done the study again the visualization and now there is a lot more cross-pollination but what we folks who were recording on the left end of the spectrum mainly followed folks on the left and folks on the right followed everyone right you were talking about earlier that bubbles there’s bubbles and we’ve helped create them yeah and maintain them so here’s what ends up happening and this is one of the big problems that people have with this story particularly you have a left-wing activist who works for NBC News I’m not accusing you of having read the article write he spends like a day lobbying to Twitter saying guys you have to do this you have to make these changes the next day he writes a story saying that 4chan is organizing these these.
Harassment campaigns and death threats and while 4chan was doing threads about it you can’t accuse fortune simply for talking about because a reddit was talking about it – as was Twitter so then the next day after he published his article now he’s getting threats and then Twitter issues a statement saying we will take action and to make matters worse when John Levine a writer for The Wrap got a statement from one of your spokespeople saying yes we are banning people for saying learn to code a bunch of journalists came out and then lied no idea why saying this is not sure this is April Fools fake news then a second statement was published by Twitter saying it’s part of a harassment campaign and so then the mainstream narrative becomes oh they’re only banning people who are part of a harassment campaign but you literally see legitimate high profile individuals getting suspensions for joining in on a joke oh they’re there for sure probably mistakes in there I don’t think that any of us are claiming that we got this hundred percent right and probably our team having a lack of context into actually what’s happening as well and.
And we would fully admit we probably were way too aggressive when we first saw this as well so and made mistakes I hope this clarifies then you have situations like this where you can see you know that this journalist I’m not going to name him but he routinely has very like left-wing I don’t want to use overtly esoteric words but the intersectional dogmatic points of view right so this is me so like intersectional feminism is considered like a small ideology it people refer to these groups as the regressive left or the identitarian left these are basically people who hold views that a person is judged based on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character so you have the right-wing version which is like y’all trite the left-wing version which is like intersectional feminism is-is-is how simply referred to so you’ll see people say like you know when they went typically when they rag on white men or when they say like white feminism these are signals that they hold these particular views and these views are becoming more pervasive so what ends up happening is.
You have a journalist who clearly holds these views only wanna call him a journalist he writes extremely biased and out of context story twitter takes action and responds seemingly in response then we can look what happens with Oliver Darcy at CNN he says you know the people at CPAC are the Conservatives are gullible eating red meat from grifters among other disparaging comments about the right and he’s the one who’s primarily advocating for the removal of certain individuals who you then remove and then when Kathy Griffin calls for daxing that’s fine when this guy calls for the death of these kids he gets it he gets a slap on the wrist and look I understand the context matters but grains of sand to make a heap and eventually you have all of these stories piling up and people are asking you why it only flows in one direction click I got to be honest I’d imagine that calling for the death three times of any individuals abandon bull offense even without a warning you just get rid of them but it didn’t happen right we see these you know people say men aren’t women though and they get a suspension we see people say.
The editor-in-chief of the Daily Caller may be the best example hashtag learned to code quoting The Daily Show and he gets a suspension threatening death and inciting death is a suspension – it feels like it’s only going in one direction yeah I think we have a lot of work do to explain more clearly when we’re taking action why and certainly looking into any mistakes we may have made in this particular situation so would you guys agree that intact I think we can all agree this I would hope you agree Tech tends to lean left like tech companies any Facebook Twitter Google I would be willing to bet that a conservative running a social network would not have a College Campuses hate speech policy I mean you look at gab and you look at mines and mine’s not even swing right there not right-wing at all they’re they just staunchly support free speech right I don’t think gap is necessarily I don’t think the owner is necessarily right-wing either I don’t know much about him I think he’s like a libertarian I don’t want to I don’t want to yes by Safari either I don’t know enough yeah I know that there when you read what they write they’re just.
Staunchly committed to free speech but they you know stop doxing they will do to stop targeted harassment daxing and along those lines sometimes slowly yeah but want they just want an open platform uh what my point is that I think a lot of people that are on the right feel disenfranchised by these platforms they use on a daily basis I don’t know what the percentage are the percentages are in terms of the number of people that are conservative they use Twitter versus the number of people that are liberal but I would imagine it’s probably pretty close isn’t it I don’t know numbers I don’t know because we don’t ask people but there we’d have to we’d have to infer all that okay so on what we’re saying or because so let’s not even go there then but the people that run whether it’s Google Twitter or Facebook any of these platforms YouTube for sure powerful leaning towards the left when we all agree to that we don’t ask our employees but my guess is that many employees the tech companies are probably liberal it’s really fascinating but I also think yeah I mean you point.
Out all the companies you mentioned are in exactly the same region as well yes and do you know we do have the challenge of some monocultural thinking yes well but and we you know I have said publicly that you know yes we will have more of a liberal bias within our company so this to CNN right but mean that we put that in our rules right but hold on McCallum because what I’m getting at is that at some point in time have to get down to a human being looking and reviewing it cases and if you guys are so left-wing in your staff and the area that you live in and all these are almost naturally going to lean left if is that fair to say if we were purely looking at the content but a lot of this agent work is based on the behaviors all the that we’ve been discussing in terms of the context of the actual content itself except then what the rules are except the misgendering policy right so your rules do reflect your bubble right go to middle America and go hang out at conservative town they’re not going to agree with you your rules are based on.
Your bubble in San Francisco or whatever city I’m from middle America I’m from st. Louis Missouri and I hear the point I definitely hear the point in terms of like us putting this rule forth but we have to balance it with the fact that people are being driven away from our platform I hear you and they may not disagree they may not agree with me on my folks from Missouri but I think they would see some valid argument in what we’re trying do to again increase the opportunity for as many people as possible to talk that’s it it’s not driving the edge that you’re speaking to where you stop what community is and isn’t deserving of protection our conservatives not deserving of protection for their opinions but I want to never being away on individuals and increasing the absolute number of people who have opportunity to speak on the platform in the first place so then do you need a rule for a body dysphoria do you need a rule for other kin right you see what I’m asking you have a specific I see what you’re asking but like and this came from a call and research and.
There are there’s disagreement as to whether this is the right outcome or not and this is the right policy and yes our bias does influence looking in this direction and our bias does take our biases influence us putting a rule like this in place but is with the understanding of creating as much opportunity as possible for as many people to speak based on the actual data that we see right of people leaving the platform because of experiences ahead why did your research stop there it hasn’t stopped we are rules aren’t set and ain’t something that just stops and evolve we’re going to constantly question we’re going to constantly get feedback from people on every end of the spectrum of any particular issue and make changes accordingly and to your credit stop and to your credit I really do appreciate that the fact that you’re very open about that you have made mistakes and that you’re continuing to learn grow and that your company is reviewing these and trying to figure out which way to go and I think we all need to pay attention to the fact that this is a completely new this road did not exist 15 years ago there.
Was nothing there that is a tremendous responsibility for company any of human beings to be in control of Laws Require public discourse on a scale unprecedented in human history and that’s what we’re dealing with here this is not a small thing and I know people that have been banned to them this is a matter of ideology this is a matter of this is a matter of that there’s a lot of debate being going on here and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on because Tim cuz you know so much about so many of these cases and so much because you are a journalist and you’re very aware of the implications and all the problems that have been that maybe have slipped through my fingers so I do want to make one thing really clear though I have a tremendous amount of respect and Trust for and say you wanted to solve this problem simply because you’re sitting here right now and all these other companies aren’t right Jack you went on sam Harris you were on get with GAD said and that says to me a good-faith effort to try and figure out how to do right like so much as I’ll apologize for.
Getting kind of angry and being emotional because he was angry died look we also haven’t been great at explaining our intent and that there’s a few going on one as Joe indicated centralized global policy as scale is almost impossible and we realizes different services have different answers this reddit has a community based policy where topic each subreddit has its own policy and you know there’s some benefit to that so that’s problem number one we know that this very binary off or on platform isn’t right and it scale and it ultimately goes against our key initiative of wanting to promote more healthier conversation I just don’t think that’s what you’re doing and I hear you I hear you no but like so we’re not done we’re not done we’re not finished with our work and we need to the reason I’m going on all these podcasts and having these conversations and ideally vigeous getting out there more often as well because we don’t see enough friend here enough for her we need to have these conversations so we can learn we can get the feedback and also pay.
Attention to where the technology is going before the podcasts we talked a little bit about and I talked about it on this our previous podcast and also technology today is enabling content to live forever in a way that was not possible before you can say that everything on the internet lives forever but that’s not it’s generally not true because any host or any connection can take it down the blockchain changes all that it can actually exist forever permanently without anyone being able to touch a government company individual and that is a reality that we need to pay attention to and really understand our value and I believe a lot of our value in the future not today again we have a tons of we have a ton of work is to take a strong stance of like we are going to be a company that given this entire corpus of conversation and content within the world we’re going work to promote healthy public conversation that’s what we want that’s what we want to do and if you disagree with it you should be able to turn it off and you should be able to access anything that you want as you.
Would with the internet but those are technologies that are just in the formative stages and presenting new opportunities to companies like ours and there’s a ton of challenges with them and a ton of the that we’ve discussed over the past hour that it solve and maybe exacerbates especially around like election and parent interference and some of the regulatory concerns at your brain so there’s a few issues right your definition of what is or isn’t healthy right yes and we want that to be public like we want that we’re going we have four indicators right now that we’re working on with an external lab we want other labs too we want to give it up open source make sure that people can comment on it that people can help us define it will use that interpretation on our own algorithms and then push it but that has to be open that has to be transparent are we there today absolutely we’re not there I this course of action to me looks like a Fahrenheit 451 future where everything is so offensive everything must be restricted I see that’s the path I see that you’re on you want to have a.
Healthy conversation you want to maximize the amount of people that means you got to cut off all the tall grass and level everything out so if you’ve decided that this one rule needs to be enforced because certain are offensive well but can I explain what health at least means to us in this absolu yes so like we talked a little bit about this on the previous podcast but what we have four indicators that were trying to define and try to understand if there’s actually something there one is shared attention is a conversation generally shared around the same objects or is it disparate so like as we’re having a conversation the four of us are having conversation are we all focused on the same thing or is Joe on his phone which you were earlier or like whatever is going on because a more shared attention create will lead to healthier conversation number two is shared reality not whether something is factual but are we sharing the same facts is the earth round is the world flat so we not men women or men yes we can tell what facts are we sharing and what facts are we not sharing what percentage of the.
Conversation so that’s a second indicator third is receptivity are the participants receptive to debate and to civility into expressing their opinion and even if it is something that might be hurtful are people receptive to at least look at and be empathetic and look at what’s behind that we this is the one we have the most measurement around today we can determine and predict when someone might walk away from a Twitter conversation because they feel it’s toxic I just ignore them all basically so and we see that in our data right so you and there’s some conversations that you get into and you know persist and then the finally is variety of perspective are we actually seeing the full spectrum of any topic that’s being talked about and these are not meant to be taken as individual parts but in unison how they played together and we’ve written we haven’t gotten far enough in actually defining what they look like and what they mean and we certainly haven’t gone good enough at understanding when we deploy a solution like being able to follow a hashtag does that impact.
Variety of perspective to the positive does it impact shared reality to the negative what not so this is how we’re thinking about it and as we think more about that influences our product and influences our enforcement and influences our policy as well what describing sounds wildly different to what Twitter is right so you have a goal for where you want to get with those metrics so I what confuses me then you when we talk about someone like Bloomberg Businessweek megan murphy who sure she violated your rules but in the context of a conversation know you recognize people will sometimes get heated with each other if you know how you do is a healthy conversation when no one is being negative what if people are yelling at each other and being mean and insulting or misgendering them I think it’s a question of what thresholds you allow and the more control we can give people to vary the spectrum on what they want to see that feels right to me I mean Joe and in your Alex podcast did exactly this thing you’re hosting a conversation you had both of your guests who started talking over each other you pause a conversation you said let’s not.
Get combative someone said I’m not being combative you said you’re all talking over each other and there’s a dynamic that the conversation then shifted to that got to some deeper points right could have just said let that happen and let it go and that’s fine too it’s up to who is viewing and experiencing that conversation and I agree with you it is completely far off from where we are today we’ve not only have we had to address a lot of these issues that we’re talking about at this table but we’ve also had to turn the company around from a business standpoint we’d have we’ve had to fix all of our infrastructure that’s over ten years old and we had to go through two layoffs because the company was too large so we have to prioritize our efforts and I don’t know any other way to do this then be really specific about our intentions and our aspirations and the intent and the why behind our actions and not everyone’s going to agree with it in the particular moment so will I want to I want to point this out before I make my next statement though just real quick it seems like the technology.
Is moving faster than the culture so I do recognize you guys are in a rock and a hard place how do you get to a point where you can have that open source crypto you know blockchain technology that allows freed open speech at the same time the technology exists Twitter has been replicated numerous times in different ways Mastodon for instance what what’s disconcerting to me is I you know and maybe you have research on this which is why you’ve taken the decisions you have but when you ban someone because they’ve said you know bad opinions misgendering well they’re not going to go away they’re going to try and find anywhere they can speak so what effectively happens is you’re taking all of these people from a wide range of the most to use of prison analogy murderers all the way to pot smokers and you put them in the same room with each other and saying you’re not welcome here well what happens when you take someone who smokes pot and put them in prison with a bunch of gangbangers and murderers they fall into that so I totally get the point I’m hyper aware of our action sending more and more.
Into the dark this is something that I wanted to discuss this is really important in this vein of thinking what about roads to redemption what about someone like Financial Times megan murphy what about someone anyone 2013 Youtube alex jones Milo is it can we find a path for people to get back to the platform that for good or for bad like it or not there is one video platform that people give a about and that’s YouTube you get kicked off a YouTube you’re doomed and that’s just reality you can go Vimeo is wonderful there’s a lot of great video platforms out there they have a tiny fraction of the views at YouTube dubs that’s just reality the same thing to be said for Twitter whether or not other platforms exist is that’s inconsequential the vast majority of people are on Twitter the vast majority of people that are making you know posts about the news and breaking information they do it on Twitter what can be set up and have you guys given consideration to some sort of a path to redemption yeah there’s redemption and there’s rehabilitation okay you know we haven’t done a great job at having a cohesive stance on.
Rehabilitation and redemption we haven’t in part so the whole focus behind the temporary suspensions is to at least give people pause and think about why they violated or why and how they violated our particular right signed up for when they came in through our Terms of Service great whether you agree with him or not like this is the agreement that we have with you no I’m just thinking this I’m sorry to interrupt you but it would be kind of hilarious if you guys had an option like a mode of Twitter an angry mode like I’m angry right now so I’m gonna type some and it says hey dude why don’t you just think about this we’re gonna hold it for you in the queue and what you’ll do that people do that and people do that in their drafts but and I’m sure they do I’m sure they do but it would be funny if you had an angry mode yeah but like you guys noticed you guys are using a lot of curse words and you’re saying a lot of bad we’re gonna put you in angry mode so think about this so you have to make several clicks if you want to post this and there is research to suggest that people expressing that actually.
Tends to minimize more violent physical oh for sure everyone says that with emails you’re if you’ve got if you’re in the middle of the night someone sends you an email and you find salt and you ready your type an email and then go to sleep wake up in the morning like someone say something nice you know that’s how I wind up interacting with these people but what do you think can be done for people like let’s say Huffington Post megan murphy because she seems one of the it’s as easy to see her perspective as any what do you think could be done for her I think you’re right I think that I would love get to a point where we think of suspensions is temporary and she’s banned for life right now that’s the only option that we’ve built into our rules but we have every capability of changing that and that’s something that I want my team to focus on is thinking about as Jack said not just coming back after some time bound period but also like what more can and should we be doing within the product itself early on to educate people about the rules so one of the that we’re working on is a very simplified version of the Twitter.
Rules that’s two pages not 20 mm-hmm I’ve made sure that my lawyers don’t write it and it’s written and it’s plain English as can we try to put examples in there and like really taking the time to educate people and I get people aren’t always going to agree with those rules and we have to address that too but at least simplifying it and educating people so that they don’t even get to that stage but once they do understanding that the in different contexts in people’s lives different times they’re gonna say and do they may not agree with and they don’t deserve to be permanently suspended forever from a platform like Twitter agree so how do you get to it so we this is something that actually we just had a meeting on earlier this week with our executive team and you know identifying kind some of the principles by which we would want to think about you know time bounding suspension so it’s work we have to do it and we’re gonna figure it out I’m not gonna tell you it’s coming out right away but a it’s on our roadmap it’s something we want to do why don’t you set up a jury system when someone.
Reports something instead of you having to worry about it there would be no accusation of bias if 100,000 users were randomly selected to determine cuz scope does this yeah and we’ve learned scope does this you please explain that we are so periscope has a content moderation so we flag based on the machine learning algorithms and in some cases reports particular replies we send them to a small jury of folks to ask is this against our firm service or is this something that you believe should be in the channel or not do you those I know to be on the jury no it’s random so you’re an engine and you decide whether or not want to participate yep okay and it’s good it has some flaws that has some gaming aspects to it as well but like we do have a lot of experiments that we’re testing and like we want to build confidence and like it’s actually driving outcomes that we think are useful and periscope is a good playground for us across many regards I think ultimately one of the greater philosophical challenges is that you are a massively powerful corporation you have international investors I.
Believe there’s a Saudi prince owns what six percent of Twitter so when I is that true I’m just gonna make sure it’s well we’re a publicly traded corporation buy stock but that mean they have influence on to day well I think depending on which political faction you ask they’ll say money is influence right so I’m not gonna say that the Saudi prince who invested in Twitter again I’ve only it’s been a while since I’ve read these stories it’s like showing up your meetings and throwing his weight around but as certainly not doing that but for Mike to trust you right this guy’s through throwing over a billion dollars I think into twitter has influence on our elections American Cities governments foreign government actors have stake and Twitter it worries me then when you base your rules on your personal decisions on an unelected group of people you have such tremendous power in this monopoly on Washington State public discourse near monopoly like he was saying some platforms as Twitter has no real competition so I just have to hope and trust you have the best interest at.
Heart but you at the end of the day it’s authoritarian no one chose you to be in charge of this I understand mentioned you discovered Twitter but Here I am looking at you know both of you who have this tremendous power over whether or not someone can get elected you can choose to ban someone and tell me all day and night you have a reason for doing it I just have to trust you that’s terrifying there’s no proof there’s no proof Ron Paul alex jones at any of these other than he’s posted right I understand that that’s actually what I was on the phone with Alex is texting me saying that he’d never did anything to endanger any child and that he was disputing what people were saying about a video of a child getting harmed and so do we just trust an unelected I mean extreme extremely wealthy individuals Saudi princes you know it’s a publicly traded company who knows where the influence is coming from your rules are blessing based on a global policy and I’m sitting here watching wow these people who are never chosen in this position have too much power over my politics I think that’s why it’s so important that we.
Take the time to build transparency into what we’re doing and that’s part of what we’re trying to do is not just in being here and talking to you guys but also building it into the product itself I think one of the I’ve really loved about a new product launch what we’ve done is to disable any sort of ranking in the home timeline if you want and you don’t have to see our algorithms that play anymore these are the kinds of that we’re thinking about how do we give power back to the people using our service so that they can see what they want to see and they can participate the way they want to participate and this is a long-term and I get then we’re not there yet but this is how we’re thinking about it and you can imagine where that goes I mean in just one switch and turning all the algorithms off what does that do what does that look like so these are the conversations that we’re having in the company whether they be good ideas or bad ideas we haven’t determined that just yet but we definitely look understand the mistrust that people have in our company myself in the.
Corporate structure in all the variables that are associated with it including who chooses to buy on the public market who chooses not to I get all of it and I grew up on the Internet I’m a believer in the Internet principles and I want to do everything in my power to make sure that we are consistent with those ideals at the same time I want to make sure that every single person and do everything in my power has the opportunity to participate let me ask you a question then for your policy as it pertains to say Saudi Arabia right do you enforce the same 1st Amendment hate speech rules on Saudi Arabia our rules are global we enforce them against everyone so even in countries where it’s criminal to be LGBT you will still ban someone for saying something disparaging to or some attach to that effect like let’s say Saudi Arabia send someone’s it to death for I don’t want to call us how your be a specific let’s call it Iran because I believe that’s the big focus right now with Trump administration Iran it’s my understanding it’s still punishable by death I could be wrong but it is.
If someone then directly targets one of these individuals will you ban them I mean do you guys function n Iran because I think we’re blocked in Iran yeah so I figured but there are some countries where for instance Michelle Malkin recently got really angry because she received notice that she violated blasphemy laws in Pakistan right so you do follow some laws in some countries but it’s not a viola question I’m asking is when Pakistan it’s very clearly a different culture they don’t agree with your rules we do have a per country takedown meaning that content might be non visible within that country but visible throughout the rest of the world but so just to add on to what Jack saying we actually are very transparent about this so we publish a transparency report every six months the details every single request that we get from every government around the world and the content that they ask us to remove and we post that to an independent third party site so you could go right now look and see every single request that comes from the Pakistani government and what content they’re trying to remove from Pakistan.
And I’ve seen a lot of conservatives get angry about this and it’s kind of confusing I’m like that’s a really good thing I would want to know if Pakistan wanted to kill me where the blasphemy laws posting pictures of Muhammad so it’s a crime are they angry about our transparency reporter there’s a perception that you sending that notice is like a threat against them for violating blasphemy laws whereas it’s very clearly just letting you know government has taken action against you which it’s saying that the government has restricted access to that content in that country and the reason we tell users are tell people that that’s happened is because a lot of them may want to file their own suit against the government or a lot of them may be in danger if they happen to be under that particular government’s jurisdiction and they may want to take action to protect themselves if they know that the government is looking at the content in their accounts so we don’t always know don’t we send the notice to everybody we don’t always know where you are or what country you live in and so we just.
Send that notice as like try to be transparent as possible the main point I was trying get to is your policies support a community but there may be laws in a certain country that does not support that community finds it criminal right so your actions are now directly opposed to the culture another of the country I guess the point trying to make is that if you enforce your values which are you know perceivably not even the majority of this country if you’re you know consider yourself some more liberal leaning and you’re half of the Fifty Nifty united states but you’re enforcing those rules on the rest of the world that use the service it’s sort of forcing other cultures adhere to yours so a lot of a lot of our rules are based in more the UN declaration just purely us the UN declaration guarantee the right of all people through any medium to express their opinion it does and it also has can it also has conditions around particular speech inciting violence and some of the some of the aspects that we speak to as well and it protects certain categories whether it’s religion race gender sexual orientation those are also protected under the.
UN covenant to protect human rights ooh pause talk about don’t worry I don’t want to just saying I’ve got a bunch of other that you know cuz you’re the thing there’s a bunch of other issues having to do with bias censorship and I feel like we’ve kind of like beaten that horse relentlessly but that horse is good to beat it’s also good to address why the horse is beaten and why it exists in the first place and I really wanted to say this again I really appreciate the fact that you guys are so open and that you’re willing to come on here and talk about this because you don’t have to this is your decision and especially you Jack after we had that first conversation and the blowback was so hard you want it to come and clarify this and I think this is so important to give people of a true understanding of what your intentions are versus what perceptions are then and thank you for hosting us again and um look I think it’s also important that the company is not just me we have people in the company who are really good at this and are making some really tough decisions and having tough.
Conversations and getting pushed back and getting feedback and they have the best intentions I don’t what so let’s I’ll get back into the meat of get to beating the dead horse yeah I don’t know if you have any data on why Jacob Wall was recently banned do you have that I believe who was Jacob wall he’s uh I don’t know described me as a conservative personality but he’s very controversial for like Machine Learning fake news or something I don’t know too much about him so I don’t want to accuse him of I don’t know who he is but he was in something where he tried accusing Moeller of like sexual assaults and it turned out to be like just completely fake ridiculous this is a gentleman that was in the USA Today article where he admitted that he was going to he had used tactics in the past to influence the election and he will continue to do so using all of his channels yes and when we saw that report our team looked at his account we noticed there were multiple accounts tied to his account so fake accounts that he had created that were discussing political issues and pretending to be other people we would have phone numbers.
Linking accounts together or email addresses in some cases IP addresses other types of metadata that are associated with accounts so we can link those accounts together and how multiple accounts in and of itself is not a violation of our rules because some people have their work account the personal account it’s when you’re deliberately pretending to be someone else and manipulating a conversation about a political issue and those are exactly the types of that we saw the Russians do for example in the 2016 election so it was that playbook and that type of activity that we saw about Jacob Wall and that’s why his accounts were suspended did you investigate Jonathan Morgan I don’t know who that is why that’s the important question why I don’t know who that is but that’s nice it might be that someone at Twitter investigated him I personally don’t know who that so one of the issues that I think is really important get to is you should know who he is he’s more important than Jacob Wallace but for some reason you know about this conservative guy and not the Democrat.
Who helped meddle in the Alabama election well so Jonathan of course it does need a sheer volume that they have to pay attention to right but it’s about grains of sand making a heap in the flow of a direction where we can see Jacob Wall has said he’s done this so you’re like we’re gonna investigate we ban him it was recently reported and covered by numerous outlets that a group called new knowledge was meddling in the Alabama election by creating fake Russian accounts to manipulate national media into believing that Roy Moore was propped up by the Russians Facebook banned him well as for their people but Twitter didn’t did ban the accounts that were engaged in the behavior I do remember that I do remember sending mr. that’s worse though so you didn’t ban the guy doing it but you banned the people like so in the case of Jacob wall we were able to directly attribute through email addresses and phone numbers his direct connection to the accounts that were created to manipulate the election if we’re not able to tie that direct connection on our platform.
Or law enforcement give us information to tie attribution we won’t take action and it’s not because of political ideology it’s because we want to be damn sure before we take action on it so someone could use a VPN perhaps and maybe additional email accounts and they could game the system in that way there are certainly sophisticated ways that people can do to mask who they are and what accounts that they’re traditionally and just the internal conversation just to provide more light into what happens like I got a I got a email or text from gujja one morning and said we are going to permanently suspend this particular it’s not a you know what do you think it’s we are going to do this and I then have an opportunity at to ask questions I asked a question why she gave me a link back to the document of all the findings in USA Today we took the action I was on Twitter a bunch of people pointed me at this Minimum Wage particular case since some of those tweets to her what’s going on so that’s well just in the background wouldn’t you just terminate anybody associated with the company that was.
Doing this I mean keep in mind too at the time when this campaign was happening is what this is what bases had he admitted to engaging in the operation in a quote to New Movie Review york times and you banned the accounts associated with it so if you know he’s the one running the company wouldn’t you be like okay you’re gone do you want us to take every single newspaper accounts attribution because what we were able to do in the Jacob Wall situation was actually tie those accounts in our own systems right that he we have to control the routes not just take the word of a newspaper you can never say said you banned his accounts yes and you know from his own statement and from his tweets that he was the run or running the company Jacob wall no Jonathan Morgan oh sorry I’m getting confused about sober so Jacob wall it’s announced in the USA Today he says I’m doing this and you’re like okay we can look at how we can see if we get rid of them with new knowledge said you did take those counts down I believe we were able to take down a certain cluster of accounts that we saw engaging in the behavior but we won’t weren’t.
Necessarily able to tie it back to one person controlling those even if say they did it do you this is where I get back we like to have some sort of attribution that’s direct that we can see would we just take the any newspaper or any article at face value and just action them that’s good you have to contact him and get some sort of a statement from him in order to take down his account obviously I don’t think he would admit to manipulating Twitter after the fact that he communicated with a newspaper write to clarify what they said what they claimed to the New Reviews New york times that was a false flag near time said they reviewed internal documents that showed they admitted it was a false flag operation the guy who runs the company said oh his company does this he wasn’t aware necessarily but it was an experiment so he he’s given kind of in my opinion duplicitous like you know not straightforward but at the time of this campaign which he claims to know about he tweeted that it was real so during the Roy Moore campaign he tweets wow look at the Russians then it comes out later his company’s the one that did it.
So you’re kind of like oh so this guy was propping up his own Social Media fake news right then when they get busted he goes oh no it’s just my company doing an experiment but you tweeted it with spearmint you use your verified Twitter account to push the fake narrative your company was pumping on this platform and so the point I want to make I guess is it sounds like we need to take a closer look at this one bana bring back morgan well well- morphe Eat Clean megan murphy sorry Morgan Murphy is a friend of mine sorry so this is I haven’t read the story it’s been like two months since the story broke so I could have my you know I don’t want to I don’t want to get sued and have my facts wrong but the reason I bring us up was not to accuse you of wrongdoing was to point out that I don’t think that the people who work at Twitter are twirling their mustaches laughing you know pressing the band button whenever they see a conservative I think it’s just there’s a bias that’s unintentional that flows in one direction so you see the news about Jacob wall and I think there’s a reason.
For it too there’s a couple reasons for one yours your staff is likely more you’ve mentioned more likely to lean left and look at certain sources so you’re going to hear about more often and take action on those as opposed to the other side of the coin but we have to consider like where the actions are taking place I’m speaking more broadly to the 4,000 people that we have as a company versus nono deliberateness that we have on bridges team I just mean when we look at a company wide average all of your employees and the direction they lean versus the new sources they’re willing to read you’re going to see a flow in one direction whether it’s intentional or not and so I think the challenge is we don’t generally rely on new sources to find interpolation of our platform but we’re looking at what we’re seeing the signals we can see and once in a while we will get tipped off to something but like for the most part when we’re looking at manipulation it’s not like the New Articles New york times can tell us like what’s going on the platform we’re the ones that have the metadata about counts we’re the ones that can see.
Pattern to behavior about scale but it’s at a point I do one name and I didn’t know another name and it was because video said you know we’re primarily banning this account and yes we didn’t have the same sort of findings in the other particular account which I got feedback on passed to her and we don’t I think but to be clear the team had taken action on those stuff months ago when actually it happened yeah I think you know a lot of what people assume mal-intent is sometimes Lesson Plan fake news you know I think one of my biggest criticisms in terms of what’s going on our culture is the news system is like you pointed out although it’s changed left-wing journalists only follow themselves I that’s my experience I’ve learned for these companies and so they repeat these same narratives they don’t get out of their bubble even today they’re still in a bubble and they’re not seeing what’s happening outside of it and then what happens is you know we according to data I think this is from pew most new journalism jobs are in blue districts so you’ve got people who only hear the same thing they only cover the same stories.
So if you know we hear all about Jesse Smollett we hear about how the stories that goes wild but there’s like 800 instances of Trump supporters wearing megawhatts getting beaten you know throughout the past couple years we had a guy show up to a school in Eugene Oregon with a gun and fire two rounds at a cop wearing a smash the patriarchy and chill shirt and those stories don’t make the headlines so it’s you know when the journalists are inherently in a bubble the information you’re going to get is a big company who follows these news organizations is going to be inherently you know one-sided as well and then the only action you’re gonna be able to take is what know you can’t ban someone if you don’t know they’re doing it here yeah I think their biggest issue and the thing that I want to fix the most is the fact that we create sustain and maintain these echo chambers yeah well you you’re rolling out that new feature that allows you to hide replies right testing we’re experimenting with an ability to enable people to have more control as you would expect a host over the conversation and like Facebook allows that yeah but I don’t think they.
Have the level of transparency that we want to put into it so we actually want to show whether a comment was moderated and then actually allow people to see those comments so both showing the action that this person moderated a particular comment and then you can actually see the comment so if it’s one click over one tap over that’s how we’re thinking about it might change in the future but we week do this without a level of transparency because we minimize something Vidya spoke to earlier which is speaking truth to power holding people to account even like the fire festival where know you have these organizers who were deleting every single comment moderating every single comment that called this thing of fraud and don’t go here we can’t reliably and we like just from a responsibility standpoint ever create a feature that enables more of that to happen and that’s how we’re thinking about even features like this I’m going to jump right off into a different train cart here has law enforcement ever asked you to keep certain people on the platform even after they violated your.
Rules so then this you know to the next question pertaining to bias you have the issue of an tyfa versus the American Life proud boys and patriot prayer and twitter permanently excised anyone associated with a Gavin Mcinnes proud boys anti-fog accounts who have broken the rules repeatedly branded known cells that have been involved in vents also active is there a reason well with the New York proud boys what we were able to do was actually look at documentation and announcements that you know the leaders of that organization had made and their use of violence in the real world so that was warrior focused on and subsequent to our decision I believe the FBI also designated that’s not true it’s not true that’s not true okay no it’s not true yet you know so proud boys started out as a joke gavin McGinnis Anthony ku Mia who was a part of Opie and Anthony now is his own show told me about it happened on his show because there was a guy that was on the show and they made a joke about starting a gang based on him because he was a very effeminate guy and they would call him the proud boys and they went into detail about how this thing became from.
A joke and saying that you could join the proud boys and everyone was you know it was like being silly to people joining it and then it becoming this thing to fight an Tifa and then becoming infested with white nationalists and becoming think well in many ways at hell it was but it’s been documented how it started and what it was and misrepresented as to what why was started IIIi think there’s some that should be clarified about them but Gavin has made a bunch of statements that cross the line he can yes he claims to be joking and so that’s what he did on my podcast he was talking to me about an Tifa that when antipholus blocking people like ben shapiro speeches and along those lines and stopping conservatives for speaking you should just punch him in the face we’re gonna have to start kicking people’s asses sounds like this is irresponsible of a foolish short-sighted and just a dumb way to talk so then you have the anti faux groups that are engaging in the same thing we’ve you know that the famous bike lock basher incident where a guy showed up hit seven he hit seven.
People over there with a bike lock they subsequently released a name i’m gonna leave that out for the time being you have other groups like by any many means necessary you have in portland for instance there are specific branded factions there’s the tweet I mentioned earlier where they doxed ice agents and they said do whatever inspires you this information and I mean you’re tagged in a million times I know you probably can’t see it but you can actually see that some of the tweets and the threat are removed but the main tweet itself from an anti-fascist account linking to a website straight up saying like here’s the private home details phone number addresses of these law enforcement officers has not removed since September so here’s what you end up seeing is again the point I think one of the big problems in this country is the media because it was reported that the FBI designated probably was an extremist group but it was a misinterpretation based a sheriff wrote a draft saying with you know the FBI considers them to be extremists the media then reported hearsay from the sheriff and the FBI came out said no no.
No we never meant to do that that’s not we were just concerned about violence so the proud boys all get purged and again I think you know Gavin’s a different story right if you want to go after the individuals who are associating with that group versus the guy who goes on this show and says rageous and goes on Joe’s show well then you have an tyfa branded cells like i’m what I mean by that is they have specific names they sell merchandise and they’re the ones showing up throwing mortar shells into crowds they’re the ones showing up with crowbars bats and whacking people I was in Boston and there was a rally where conservatives were planning putting on a rally was literally just like libertarians and conservatives anti-fur shows up with crowbars bats in balaclavas with weapons threatening them and so I have to wonder if you know these people are allowed to organize in your platform are you concerned about that why aren’t they being banned when they violate the rules yeah absolutely concerned about that has the FBI designated them it’s a domestic turn yes I’m sorry Homeland Security in.
New Jersey has listed them under domestic terrorism okay so here that I understand is a conundrum in that the general concept of anti-fascism is a loose term that means you oppose fascism room but an tyfa is now they have a flag they’ve had a flag since the Soviet you know so Nazi Germany in the Soviet era and they’ve brought it back there are specific groups that I’m not going to mention by name that have specific names and they sell merchandise they’ve appeared in various news outlets they’ve expressed their desire to use violence to suppress speech there was is it a centralized organization the same way that I hear you on probably’s but like where they have like tenants that are written out and there’s a leader and like it’s not the same but there are specific branded cells that’s why I bring them up specifically I realize you know someone showing up to a rally wearing a black hoodie and sunglasses who even a ban but there are groups that organize specifically call for violence they push the line close lightly as possible they advocate sabotage and like this and you know when the proud boys go out and get.
Into fights they’re not getting in fights of themselves they’re you know so and I should point out that they decided to call for violence based on and Tifa calling for violence yeah based on actually actively committing violence against conservative people that were there to see different people well it partly started because in Berkeley there was a trump rally so actually after Milo got chased out of the Berkeley they were there was a hundred thousand dollars in damages I mean there’s a video of some guy in all black cracking someone on the back was on the ground looking what their unconscious so these conservatives see this and they decide to hold a rally saying we won’t back down they hold a rally in Berkeley and then anti-fur shows up again I understand you can’t figure out who these people are for the most part they’re decentralized but then this incites an escalation you then get the rise of the base to stick man they called it this a guy shows up in armor with a stick and he starts swinging back and now you have two factions forming so while I recognize it’s much easier to ban a top-down group there are you know.
The difference I guess is while you look at the proud ways it’s straight top-down vertical you look at an taifa and there’s different cells of varying size and their different accounts so I have to like I guess the argument I could make is if you’re gonna ban the proud boys by all means under your justification but if you look at a specific channel that’s got twenty thousand followers that cheers them on right these are people who throw mortar shells into crowds isn’t that advocating for you know terrorism and citement of violence yeah so I guess the question is how come they don’t get removed well in the past when we’ve looked at an TiVo it’s we ran into this decentralization issue which is we weren’t able to find the same type of information that we were able to find about Bravo’s which was a centralized leadership based documentation of what they stand for but absolutely I mean it’s something we’ll continue to look into and to the extent that they were using Twitter to organize any sort of offline violence that’s completely prohibited under our rules and we would.
Absolutely take action but I ask you why Gavin was banned it was there a specific thing that he did or was it as association with the proud boys association with you know he’s abandoned that he’s not only that he’s disassociated himself with it and said that it completely got out of hand he wanna have anything to do with it yeah and I think this is a great again test case for how we think about getting people back on the platform if he’s an interesting case because he’s really a provocateur and he fancies himself you know sort of a punk rocker and just he likes stirring I mean when he came on my show last time he was on he was dressed up like Michael Douglas and falling down you know he did it on purpose he brought a briefcase and everything I’m like what are you doing it’s like I’m Michael Douglas I’m falling down like he’s showman in many ways and he did not mean for this to go the way it went he thought it would be this sort of innocent fun thing to be a part of and then other people got involved in it and when people call for violence the problem is they think that you know you’re gonna just hit.
People and it’s gonna solve a problem it just creates a much more comprehensive problem it’s important to point out Gavin said has had many like he said way worse thing than Sport Relief alex jones ever didn’t turn whether you want to say it’s a joke or not he said like you know choke on punch only uh-huh yep but I guess was the primary reason for getting rid of them was what you thought that the FBI had designated them extremist group no cuz we did it medicine months in advance okay yeah I was just so he just it was just his association with the proud boys I don’t recall and I would have to go back and I don’t want to misstate I don’t want them all whether those statements that you’re referring to you if Gavin’s were on Twitter so they weren’t there’s another you know when it comes to the weaponization of rules against like Gavin isn’t creating a compilation of he’s ever said out of context and then sending them around get himself banned other people are doing that to him activists who don’t like him and it’s effective in fact I would actually like to point out there’s one particular.
User who has repeatedly made fake videos attacking one of your other high-profile conservatives much so that he said to file police reports harassment complaints and it just stop you know so I guess I’ll ask to this regard if someone repeatedly makes videos of you out of context fake audio accusing you of doing you’ve never done at what point is that banner bull yeah and if it’s targeted harassment and we can establish it it’s just a really hard thing with us determining whether something is fake or not well when are out of context you still have video the person saying that I agree that it’s out of contest it’s disingenuous but it’s still the person saying it and you’re making a compilation of some pre-existing audio or video so I think in this instance of Gavin like one of the he said was like a call to violence but he was talking about okay it was in the context of talking about a dog and being scolded yeah so he was like hit him just hit him and then it’s like it turns out he’s talking about a dog like running something wrong when they take that they snip it and then it goes viral and.
Anyone starts flagging saying you gotta banned this guy so again I understand like you know but I guess the issue is if people keep doing that to destroy someone’s life so I think there’s a bigger Kurdish question I think both of you could probably had some important light on to outside of Twitter this weaponization of content from platforms is being used to get people banned from their banking accounts you know get there we can talk about patreon for instance and again I’m not is this may just be something you could chime in on patreon banned man named Carl Benjamin also known as Sargon of Akkad he’s also banned from Twitter and it was you know why he got banned from Twitter I can see that’s an inch I do have some of the details here do you want me to read you please okay um looks like it’s gonna be gross it’s not stuff that I love saying but I will say it what Jack said he like cursing either let’s see I curse more than he does so guess I should say it first strike white people kill almond eyes system none of the above qualify as Court Cases hate speech what kid was that.
I don’t have the dates I’m sorry but he’s a white guy I mean obviously he’s joking around they’re like white people it also sounds to make a point about your holes and how you enforce them not actually possibly well which is also exactly why you get kicked off a patreon he was exactly yeah well I know he also posted a photo of interracial gay at some white nationalist to make them angry yes yeah he’s funny way he’s funny somebody I can understand how posting that photo is an egregious violation of the rules whether or not he was trying to insult some people that’s a very good point and I wanted to bring that up is a violation of the rules generally no really good for you oh and why would ends in my feet all the time I follow a couple naughty girls and occasionally they post pictures of themselves engaging in intercourse I’m so then what else were the other strikes for Sargon um let’s see there was the use of a Jewish slur how do you use it to a person you trader remainer white genocide supporting is llama file Jewish slur lover that should keep you going.
Hashtag Hitler was right but these are the general opinions these are targeted at somebody that sounds like he’s being slaughtered like he’s making a joke yeah in context it sounds like the other one like in context what he’s saying particularly the fact that he’s a white guy that sound like a racial slur at all I mean he’s saying white people his wife in context again these are tied together right I always knew that person trusted that Jewish slur oh so there’s a bunch of very specific person targeting very trying to be very precise saying about a specific Jewish person I don’t know the race of this person I’m sorry and this is not okay but this is not it is not parody this is not joking we didn’t view it that way just I’m not trying to like read all this I’m just telling you what they were like it I knew he had done that were like egregious violations of the rules cuz you know playing simple I didn’t bring him up to you know go through try and figure out a feat but that it does sound like at least the first one was.
Meant to be drunk of here so potentially but there are a bunch of others if you want to hear I’m more than sure he burrows is again targeted this is how I know one day that I’ll be throwing you from a helicopter you’re the same kind of malignant cancer don’t forget it so there’s just it’s not one thing two or three this is like a bunch of them the engines of grandeur imagine think you gonna throw someone from a well he believe you in that but admittedly and I so he’s on YouTube by the name Sargon of Akkad he’s a big account and I’ve criticized him for being overly mean in the past and I think exactly it’s angry but he is a very different now and I guess the reason I brought him up was he’s very different now how so well a lot of the content he makes is much calmer he’s less likely to insult someone directly he makes probably recognizing that he’s on his last straw oh definitely kicked off of Twitter he’s on YouTube he’s probably gonna mind his P’s and Q’s oh but so the reason I brought him up again but move on was that activists found a live stream from eight months.
Ago again I totally forgot why I was bring us up because we’ve moved so far away from when we were but they pulled this clip from an hour and a half or whatever into a two-hour live stream on a small channel that only had two thousand views sent to patreon and then patreon said yep that’s a violation and banned him outright without warning which I understand is different from what you guys you do suspensions but I guess the reason I was bringing up was to talk about a few why blocking isn’t enough why muting isn’t enough and if you think that it’s driving people off the platform people post my tweets on Reddit I block them they use a dummy account load up my tweet pose it to Reddit and then spam me on reddit so you know blocking and even leaving Twitter would never do anything short of me shutting up there’s nothing you can do to protect me or anyone else look I mean these are exactly the conversations we’re having one the reason why I don’t think blocking and reading are enough is one I don’t think we’ve made me powerful enough it’s spread all over the surface.
You you can use it and then you got to go find where you actually mean these people are another profile page and that’s just it’s not it’s a disaster it just work in the same way that it should work in the same way that follow works it’s just the inverse of that I noticed that now I get a notification that says you can’t see this tweet because you meted this person right before I would just see a weird reply and be like oh it’s one of those exactly you know so there’s also all this infrastructure that we have to fix in order to like pass those through in terms of what action you took or what actions someone else took to be transparent about what’s happening on the network and the second thing that block is really interesting I think it’s a my own view is its wholly unsatisfying because what you’re doing is you’re blocking someone they get notification that you’ve blocked them which may involve them even more which causes you know others around and ramifications from the network but also that person can log out to Twitter and then look at your tweets just on the public web because we’re Republic so.
Exactly it feel as rigorous and as durable something like making me much stronger but I guess the challenge is no matter what rule you put in place people are going to harass you if you’re engaging in public discourse you know if I go out in the street and yell out my opinion somebody could get in my face if I get off Twitter cuz I’m sickened I mean look you know I’m sure you get a way worse than I do especially is you know the high profile probably came in right now yeah totally owe me to God but so the only thing I can do is look we’re not on Twitter right now we’re on Joe Rogan’s podcast and they’re still going to target you on Twitter they’re still gonna I guarantee we’re all over edit the left is probably railing on me the rights railing on you guys so it’s it seems like even if you try everything in your power to make Twitter healthier and better it’s not going to change anything no I’m sure about that I’m not sure about that because one of the that I do think is that just I’m not in favor of a lot of this heavy handed banning and a lot of the that have been going on particularly.
Like a case like the Washington Dc megan murphy case but what I think that we are doing is we’re exploring the idea of civil discourse where we’re trying to figure out what’s acceptable and what’s not acceptable and you’re communicating about this on a very large scale and it’s putting that out there and then people are discussing it whether they agree or disagree whether they vehemently defend you or hate you they’re discussing and this is I think this is how these change and they change over long periods of time think about words that were commonplace just a few years ago that you literally can’t say anymore right you know I mean there’s so many of them that we’re extremely commonplace not even thought to be offensive ten years ago that now you can get banned off aplausos for but that’s a good point to argue against banning people and to cease enforcing York Ny united states hate speech rules yeah I did with that as well I think it’s both let me tell you something important I was in the UK at an event for a man named count dink EULA who I don’t know if you’ve heard of sure yeah Thank You Liz the guy who got.
Charged and convicted of making a joke where had his pug do a Nazi salute but I was there and I was arguing that a certain white nationalist had used racial slurs on YouTube he has I don’t want to name him and some guy in the UK said that’s not true he’s never done that and I said you’re crazy let me pull it up unfortunately I don’t know why but when I did the Google search nothing came up what I did notice was at the bottom of the page it said due to you know UK law certain have been removed so I don’t know if it was exactly why I couldn’t pull up a video proving tweets or anything because I think using these words get stripped from the social platforms I could not prove to this man the member century that in the UK that this would use a VPN and get around that uh yeah I mean at the time I was just like trying to pull it up and I’m like oh that’s weird so now you have someone who realize he’s a fan of a bigot because the law has restricted the speech mmm so there’s a point to be made if you I understand you want a healthy like you want Twitter to grow you need to grow the shareholders needed to grow the.
Advertisers need to advertise so you’ve got all these restrictions but allowing people to say these awful makes sure we stay away from them and it allows us to avoid certain people and isn’t it important to know that these people hold these beliefs if you get rid of them you know someone could walk into a business and you wouldn’t even know that they were a neo-nazi but if they were high-profile saying the you’d be like that’s the guy I don’t like you’re absolutely right this is like one of my favorite sayings is that sunlight is the best disinfectant mmm and it’s so true I like one of the biggest problems with censorship is the fact that you push people underground and you don’t know what’s going on and this is something I worry about it’s not that I don’t worry about he banned people for these reasons I also worry about driving people away from the platform and affecting their real lives so like what we’re trying to find this right balance and I hear like you may not think we’re drawing the lines in the right place and we get that feedback all the time and we’re always trying to find the right places.
I worry as much about like the underground and like being able to shine a light on these anything else Tim I think it’s a cost-benefit analysis and we have to constantly rehash it and do it like we have the technology we have today and we are looking at technologies which open up the aperture even more and we all agree that a binary on or off is not the right answer and is not scalable we have started getting into nuance within our enforcement and we’ve also started getting into nuance with the presentation of content so you know one path might have been for some of your replies for us to just remove that those you know offensive replies completely we don’t do that we hide it behind an interstitial to protect the original tweeter it and also folks who don’t want to see that they can still see everything they just have to do one more top so that’s one solution ranking is another solution but as technology gets better and we get better at applying to it we have a lot more option ality whereas we don’t have that as much today I feel like you know it just gonna reiterate an earlier point.
Though you know if you recognize sunlight is the best disinfectant your it’s like you’re chasing after a goal that can never be met if you want if you want to protect all speech and they start banning certain individual you want to increase the amount of healthy conversations but you’re banning some people well how long until this group is now offended by that group how long till you’ve banned everybody I hear you it I don’t believe a permanent ban promote self okay so I don’t believe that but we have to we have to work with the technologies tools and conditions that we have today so and evolve over time to where we can see examples like this woman at the Westboro Baptist Church who was using Twitter every single day to spread hate against the other pzq a community and over time we had I think it was three or four folks on Twitter who would engage her every single day about what she was doing and she actually left the church that’s Michael Phelps she’s amazing and she’s now pulling her family out of that as well and you could make the argument that if we banned that account early on she would have never.
Left the church I completely hear that we get it it’s just well so let’s I just want to make sure we’re advancing the conversation too and not just gonna go back so I’ll just ask you this have you considered allowing some of these people permanently banned it back on with some restrictions may be you can only tweet twice per day maybe you can’t retweet or something to that effect I think we’re very early in our thinking here so we’re open-minded how to do this I think we agree philosophically that permanent bans are an extreme case scenario and it shouldn’t be one of our you know regularly use tools in our tool chest so how we do that I think is something that we’re actively talking about today is there a timeline that we can so look you know like that would fix a lot of problems yes I really didn’t if it’s like I’m just curious like are you thinking like fans of a year or five ten years like I’m just curious like what is a reasonable ban in this kind of context well I think reasonably so much enough to state their case as to why they want to be unbanned like someone should to have a like.
A well measured considerate response to what they did wrong do they agree with what they did wrong maybe perhaps saying don’t think they did anything wrong and you could review it from there I think you know one of the challenges we have the benefit in English common law hundreds years of precedent and developing new rules and figuring out what works and Witter is very different so I think with the technology I don’t know if you need permanent bans or even suspensions at all you could literally just I mean lock someone’s account is essentially suspending them but again I wouldn’t you know claim to know anything about the you go through but what if you just restricted most of what they could say know you blocked certain words in a certain dictionary if someone’s been if someone greased Hill oh no but the thing about this way is it better to they’re permanently banned or better but it’s not good you don’t know think about this way instead of being suspended for 72 hours you get a dictionary block from New York hate speech words.
Right does that not make sense people just using coded language this is what we see all the time yeah I know well they could move what do you think about perhaps instead of what is it possible to have levels of Twitter like a completely uncensored unmoderated level of Twitter and then you know have like a rate at are and then have like a pg-13 mean I don’t think that’s a bad idea we have those levels in place today but you don’t really see them one we have a not safe for work switch which you can turn on or off oh really yeah I say four works which I think you have it off Joe no it’s there so we have that and then as Richard pointed out earlier you know we have the timeline we started ranking the timeline about three years ago we enable people today to turn that off completely and see you know the reverse cron of everything they follow you can imagine a world where that switch has a lot more power over more of our algorithms throughout more of the surface areas you can imagine that so these are all the questions that are on the table just about timeline and this is a challenging one I don’t.
Know about timeline because first we we’ve decided that our priority right now is going to be on proactively enforcing a lot of this content specifically around anything that Seizure Patients physical safety like doxxing so hi-brite but there’s so many examples of what you guys not doing that I know but that that’s what we that’s what we’re watching right now that’s a part is asian but I think from your invective we think more in terms of milestones on the particular time when we’re gonna move fast as we can but some of its a function of our infrastructure of the technology we have to we have bring to bear do you guys have conversations about trying to shift the public perception of having this left-wing bias and maybe possibly addressing it yeah doing now right yeah mean I went on the sean hannity show I you know we how was that we brought ourselves before it was springing out of sunlight it was short and he well it was short and there weren’t a lot of really tough questions and that was a you know I get it like look again also I’m from Missouri my.
Dad is a Republican he listened to Hannity he listened the Rush Limbaugh my mom was a Democrat and I feel extremely fortunate that I was able to first see that spectrum but also feel safe enough to express my own point of view but when I go on someone like Hannity I’m not talking to Hannity I’m talking to people like my dad who listen to him right and I want to get across how we think and also that our thinking evolved ‘z and here’s the challenges we’re seeing and like this art is our intent this is what we’re trying to protect and we’re gonna make some mistakes along the way and we’re going admit to him we didn’t admit to them in the past we damn it to a lot more over the past three years but you know I don’t know any other way to address some of these issues at it all goes back to trust like are one of our core operating principles is earning trust how do we earn more trust and I you know the people in the world who do not trust us at all and there are some people who trust us a little bit more but this is the thing that we want to measure this the thing that we want to get better at I saw you had a conversation with I.
Think Katie Hertzog no who was it that’s the wrong person you had a Twitter conversation with Oh Kara Swisher Wow wrong person but someone’s got a shout out and you know I see that the left goes at you in the opposite direction they want more can they want more banning they want more you know restrictions the right is saying less right so I mean in terms of solving the problem tell us what that conversation was about I would you want to summarize because my the thing I was pointing out specifically was that you’re being asked to do more in terms of controlling well it wasn’t just more but to be a lot more specific about what actions we’ve taken to promote more health on the platform like what products had we change what policies did we introduced in the past two years so she was asking questions every question asked she wanted me to be a lot more specific and some of these have something that is very specific some are a directional right now because like we have to prioritize you know the direction and I talked about like you know we’ve.
Decided that Computer Room physical safety is going to be a priority for us and to us that means like being a whole lot more proactive around like boxing so choosing qestions I guess I’m not gonna imply that you have unlimited funding but we did mention the peer review oh right I mean you had mentioned earlier layoffs in retraction peer review which we mentioned but have you just considered opening an office even a small one for trust and safety in an area that’s not predominantly blue so that at least you have like you can have some pushback and what is learned to code mean and then they could tell you absolutely so that a that’s great feedback and just so you know the trust and safety team is also a global team the enforcement team is a global team so it’s not like people from California who are looking at everything making decisions they’re global now I hear your point about who trains them and the materials they have and all that and like we have to think about that and that’s one thing that Jack has really been pushing us to think about is how do we decentralize our workforce because out of San Jose out of San.
Francisco in particular so this is something he’s very focused on what about publishing evidence of wrongdoing in a banning so when people say you know what did Alex Jones really do maybe a lot of people didn’t realize what you saw and again it’s an issue of trust yeah I love this Tim I’m a lawyer so by training we’re thinking of doing something called we call case studies but essentially like this is our case law this is what we use and so on high-profile cases people ask us about like to actually publish this so that we can go through you know by tweet just like this because I think a lot of people just don’t understand and they don’t believe us when we’re saying these so to put that out there so people can see and again they may disagree with the calls that we’re making but we at least want them to see why we’re making these calls I think and that I do want to do I want to at least start that by the end of this year so I think you know ultimately my main criticism stands and I don’t see a solution to in that Twitter is an unelected you know unaccountable far as I’m concerned.
When it comes to public discourse you have rules that are very clearly at odds as we discussed I don’t see a solution to that and I think in my opinion we can have this kind of like we’ve tone down we’ve had some interesting conversations but ultimately unless you’re willing to allow people to just speak entirely freely you are and we have an unelected group with a near monopoly on public discourse in many capacities and I understand it’s not everything reddit is big to and it’s you know what I see is you are going to dictate policy whether you realize it or not and that’s going to terrify people and it’s going to make violence happen it’s gonna make worse you know the III I hate bringing up this example on the rule for misgendering because I’m actually I understand it and I can agree with it to a certain extent I’ve you know never liked nothing with respect for the trans community but I also recognize we’ve seen an escalation in street violence we see continually a disenfranchised large faction of individual in this country we then see only one of those factions banned we then see a massive multinational.
Billion-dollar corporation with private and foreign investors and it looks to me like if you hold if you know Negotiation Agreements foreign governments are trying to manipulate us there I don’t see a direct solution to problem that you do have political views you do enforce them and means that Americans who are abiding by American rule are being excised from political discourse and that’s the future that’s it yeah we do have views on the approach and again like we ground this in creating as much opportunity as possible for the largest number of people right that’s where it starts and where we are today will certainly evolve but like that is what we are trying to base our roles and judgments not and I get that that’s an ideology I completely understand it but we also have to we also have to be free to experiment with missions and experiment with evolving policy and putting something out there that might look right at the time and evolving it I’m not saying this is it but like we look to research we look to our experience and data on the platform and we make a call and if.
We get it wrong we’re going to admit it and we’re going to evolve it but I guess do you understand my point I understand the point that there are North Korea american citizens abiding by the law who have a right to speak and be involved in public discourse that you have decided aren’t allowed to yeah and I think we’ve discussed like we don’t see that as a win we see that as not promoting health ultimately over time right but it’s ultimately what is your priority do you have it prioritized in terms of what you’ve got what you guys would like to change I think Jack has said it a couple times but the first thing we’re gonna do is prioritize people’s Common Sense physical safety that’s got to be like understanding you already I’ve done that pretty much right no you do that more okay work I don’t think companies like ours make the link enough buidling the online and offline ramifications what’s the main criticism what’s the main criticism you guys is it censorship that you guys experience is it censorship is it banning like what is it what do you get the most it depends on every single person has a different criticism so I.
Don’t think there’s a universal opinion I mean you just painted the picture right I mean it like the left electrum is asking for more sure the right is asking for less but that’s very simplified just for this country mm-hm yeah that’s consistent I mean my opinion would be much as I don’t like I don’t like a lot of what people say about me what they do the rules you’ve enforced on Twitter have done nothing to stop harassment towards me or anyone else right I swear to had my Twitter I mean my reddit is probably you know 50 messages from various you know far left and left-wing subreddits lying about calling me horrible names quote tweeting me and these people are blocked right and I never used to block people because I thought it was silly because I can get around it anyway but I decided to at one point because out of sight out of mind if they see my tweets less they’ll probably interact with me less but they do this and they lie about what I believe they lie about what I stand for trying to destroy everything about me and they do this to other people I recognize that so ultimately I say well.
What can you do it’s gonna happen on one of these platforms the Internet is a thing as they say on the Internet welcome to the Internet so you know to me I see Twitter trying to enforce all these rules to maximize good and all you end up doing is stripping people from the platform putting them in dark corners with a web where they get worse and then you don’t really solve the Rassman problem hardly in a corner of the web right no I’m not talking but there are dark corners I’ve read it there where alternatives I mean the internet isn’t going to go away and people have found alternatives and here’s the other thing that’s really concerning we can see a trend among all these different big Silicon Valley tech companies and they hold a similar view to you guys they’ve banned similar ideology and they’re creating a parallel you’ve got alternative social networks popping up that are taking the dregs of the mainstream and give them a place to flourish grow make money now we’re seeing people be banned MasterCard banned from PayPal even banned from Chase Bank because they all.
Hold the same similar ideology to you oh it’s you know in some capacities I don’t know exactly why chase does it I assume it’s because you’ll get some activists who will explain what you’re talking about there have been a series of individuals banned from Chase Bank their accounts have been yes their accounts were closed one of the I think maybe the most notable might be Martina and Marco de I don’t know much about her I follow around Twitter and her tweets are typical conservative fare and she created a comic I think it’s called Lady she’s a trump supporter and she got a notice that her business account was terminated you then have Joe Biggs who previously worked with Infowars I don’t know much about this I didn’t follow up but he tweeted out chases shutter my account and then you have the new chairman of the proud voice and wreak a I forgot his last name tario or something and so he knows really white oh no he’s a for Cuban I know that’s letter I but you know so what I see across the board it’s not just in this where I want to bring it before.
About perspective on these you guys are like we’re gonna do this one thing and no snowflake blames itself for the Avalanche but now what do we have conservatives being stripped from PayPal we have certain individuals strip from PayPal patreon financing so they set up alternatives now we’re seeing people who have like you mentioned Westboro Baptist Church she’s been d radicalized by being on the platform but now we have people who are being radicalized by being pushed into the dark corners and they’re building and getting they’re growing and they’re growing because there’s in this idea that you can control this and can’t you know I think you mentioned earlier that there studies showing and also counter studies but people exposed to each other is better I found something really interesting and because I have most but whether or not people want to believe this all of my friends are on the left and some of them are even like socialists and they’re absolutely terrified say to talk because they know they’ll get attacked by the people who call for censorship.
And try to get him fired and when I talked to them I was talking to a friend of mine in LA and she said is there a reason to vote for Trump and I explained a very simple thing about Trump supporters this was back in 2016 I said oh well know you got a lot of people who are concerned about the free trade agreements sending jobs overseas so they don’t know much about Trump but they’re gonna vote for him because he supported that and so did Bernie and then the response is really I didn’t know that and so you have this ever-expanding narrative that Trump supporters are neo-nazis and the mob head is the KKK hood and a lot of this rhetoric you know emerges on Twitter but when a lot of these people are getting excised then you can’t actually meet these people and see that they’re actually people and they may be mean they may be mean people they may be awful people but they’re still people and even if they have bad opinions sometimes you actually I think in most instances you find the regular people well there’s a part of the problem of calling for censorship and banning people and that it is sometimes effective and that people don’t want to.
Be thought of as being racist or in support of racism or in support of nationalism or any of these horrible so you feel like if you support these bannings you support positive discourse and a good society and all these different what you don’t realize is what you’re saying is that this does create these dark corners of the web and these other social media platforms evolved and have farm I mean when you’re talking about bubbles and about the these groupthink bubbles the worst kind of groupthink bubbles is a bunch of hateful people that get together and decide their approach they’ve been persecuted instead of like we were talking about with Megan Phelps having an opportunity to maybe reshape their views by having discourse with people yeah who choose to or not choose to engage with them well let’s think about the logical end of where this is all going you want healthier conversation so you’re willing to get rid of some people who then feel persecuted and have no choice but to band together with others Master Card chaise patreon they all do it Facebook does it they’re growing.
These platforms are growing they’re getting more users expanding they’re showing up in real life and they’re you know even if these people who are band aren’t the neo-nazi evil they’re just regular people who have banded together that forms a parallel finance system a parallel you’ve got patreon alternatives emerging where people are saying you know we reject you and now want a platform where people say the most ridiculous now they have money who normalizes that as well that’s also blood that’s what I mean by a parallel society to them everything they’re doing is just right and you can’t stop them anymore and it develops hate for the opposing viewpoint you start hating people that are progressive because these are the people that like you and I have talked about the date in society report that labeled us is all right adjacent or whatever now more Fooling Millions fake news coming up right connected because you and I have talked to people that are on the right or far right that somehow or another we’re secretly far-right and that there’s this influencer network of.
People together and saying well it’s a schizophrenic connection that’s one of those weird where people draw a circle oh you talked to this guy and this guy talked to that guy therefore you know that guy well so here’s an expanded part of this problem so this you probably familiar but a group called data and society published what’s entirely fake report labeling 81 alt right adjacent to wherever they want to call it YouTube channels included Joe Rogan and me it’s fake but you know what a couple dozen news outlets wrote about as if it was fact you believe the proud boys were labeled as FBI up by the FBI’s extremists when they actually weren’t it was a sheriff’s report from someone not affiliate with the FBI but they are activists within media who have an agenda and we saw this with learned to code it was an NBC reporter who very clearly is in you know left-wing identitarian writing a story for NBC then your average American sees that NBC story thinks it’s factual then everyone talks about it then your people hear about it then you start banning people so you know that I guess them to drive the point home the snowflake won’t blame.
Itself for the Avalanche you guys are doing what you think is right so is Facebook YouTube patreon all these platforms and it’s all gonna result in one thing it’s gonna result in groups like patriot pair and the proud boys saying I refuse to back down showing up it’s gonna result in an tyfa showing up it’s going to result in more extremism you’ve got an auntie of account that published the home addresses and phone numbers that hasn’t been banned that’s going to further like show conservatives that the policing is asymmetrical whether you know it is or isn’t and I think the only outcome to this on the current course of action is like insurgency we’ve seen people planting bombs in Houston try to blow up a statue we saw someone plan to bomb at a police station in Eugene Oregon two weeks before that a guy showed up with a gun and fired two rounds at a cop wearing a smash the patriarchy and she ll shirt so you know so that happens then a week later they say you killed our comrade then a week later a bomb is planted I don’t believe it’s coincidence maybe it is but because I lived in New York I got out too many.
People knew who I was and there were as people sending me emails with threats and I’m like this is escalating you know we’ve seen throughout the past years with Trump we’ve seen Breitbart has a list of 640 instances of Trump supporters being physically attacked or harassed in some way there was a story the other day about an 81 year old man who was attacked and it seems like everything’s flowing in one direction and nobody wants to take responsibility and say maybe we’re doing something wrong right this is that’s why I brought up early regulation is in my opinion inevitable yeah mean I don’t think it’s going to be the responsibility of any one company we have a desire to be clear that we have a desire to promote health in public conversation and as we’ve said like I don’t think over time a permanent ban promotes all right I don’t but we have to we have to get there and then the role of course but like we just have work to do and I the benefit of conversations like this is we’re talking about it more but the people will naturally call us out like you got it you got to show it as well do you.
Feel regulation I don’t fear a regulation if we’re talking about regulation in the government intervention in the job of if a regulator job is to protect the individual and make sure that they level the playing field and they’re not pushed by any particular special interests companies like ours who might you know put work with a regular to protect our own interest that I think is incorrect I agree that we should have an agency that can help us protect the individual and level the playing field ID so I think oftentimes companies see themselves as reacting to regulation and I think we need to take more of an education role so I don’t fear it I want to make sure that we’re educating regulators on what’s possible what we’re seeing and where we could go when you say educating regulators that that’s initiating a regulation I mean not necessarily I mean we might just be educating regulators who are regulators these are folks who might be tasked with coming up with a proposal for particular legislation or laws present to legislators so it’s making.
Sure that we are educating to the best serve ability this is what we are this is what we see this is where technology is going and do think you can hold off regulation though you think that by these approaches and by being proactive and by taking a standard perhaps offering up a road redemption to these people and making clear distinctions between what you’re allowing what you’re not allowing you can hold off regulation or do you disagree with what he’s saying about regular I don’t believe that should be our goal is to hold off regulation I believe we should be we should participate like any other citizen whether it be a corporate citizen or individual citizen in helping to guide the right regulation so are you familiar and I could be wrong on this because it’s been like 15 years since I’ve done this are you familiar with the Clean Water Restoration Act at all I don’t expect anybody it’s a very specific thing so it was at some point in like the early 70s there was a river in Ohio and again I could be wrong it’s been 15 years I used to work for an environmental organization started on.
Fire and what was typically told to us was that all of these different companies said we’re doing the right thing but this as I mentioned the snowflake blame itself so over time the river was so polluted it became sludge and lit on fire and so someone said if all of these companies think they’re doing the right thing and they’ve all just contributed to this nightmare we need to tell them blanket and so what I see with these companies like banking institutions public discourse platforms video distribution I actually I’m really worried about what regulation will look like because I think the government is gonna you know screw everything up but I think there’s going to be a recoil of first I think the Republicans cuz I watched the testimony you had in Congress and I thought they had no idea what they’re talking about nor do they care there was like a couple people who made good points but the most part they were like I or whatever and they asked about Russia and stuff so they have no idea what’s going on but there’ll come a time when you know for instance one the.
One of the great they brought up was that by default when someone in DC signs up they see way more Democrats than Republicans right you remember that when you testified yeah so well that there’s an issue and I don’t think I believe when you say it’s algorithmic that these are you know prominent individuals so they get automatically recommended but then they’re you know so again the solution to that like how do you regulate a programmer to create an algorithm to solve that problem is it’s crazier you’re regulating someone to invent technology but I feel like there will be a backlash when too many right now we’re seeing the reason one of the reasons were having this conversation is that conservatives feel like they’re being persecuted and repressed so then it’s gonna escalate form it’s not gonna stop with the conversations and so that we’ve been having a lot of talks about this particularly around algorithms and one of the that we’re really focused on is not just fairness and outcomes but also explained ability of algorithms and I know Jack you love the steps I don’t know if you want to talk a little.
Bit about our work there yeah I mean we so there’s two fields of research within artificial intelligence that are rather new but I think really impactful for our industry one is fairness in ml so yes and what fairness and machine learning and deep learning so looking at everything from what data set is fed to an algorithm so like the training data set all the way to how the algorithm actually behaves on that data set making sure that it does not develop bias over the large a longevity of the algorithms use case so that’s one area that we want to lead in and we’ve been working with some of the leading researchers in the industry to do that because the reality is a lot of this human judgment is moving algorithms and the second issue with in moving algorithms is our rhythms today can’t necessarily explain the decision-making criteria that they use so they can’t explain in the way that you make a decision you explain why you make that decision algorithm today are not being programmed in such a way that they can even explain that you may wear an Apple watch for instance it might tell you to stand.
Every now and then right now those algorithms can’t explain why they’re right that’s a bad example because does it fit every 50 minutes but as we offload and more of these decisions both internally and also individually to watches and to cars and whatnot there is there’s no ability right now for that algorithm to actually go through and list out the criteria used to make that decision so this is another area that we’d like to get really good at if we want continue to be transparent around our actions because a lot of these are just black boxes and they’re being built in that way because there’s been no research into like well how do we get these our rooms to explain what their decision is that might and hasn’t been asked my fear is you it’s technology that you need to build yeah but the public discourse is there we know that Cases Involving foreign governments are doing this we know that Democratic operatives in Alabama did this and so I imagine that you know with Donald Trump III you know he talked about an executive order for free speech on college campuses so.
That the chattering is here someone’s going to take a sledgehammer Twitter Facebook to YouTube and just be like for not understanding the technology behind it not willing to give you the benefit but the benefit of the doubt and just saying I don’t care why you’re doing it we are mad you know I mean there’s a path some bills and then it’s over again and clarifying I think you guys are biased and I think what you’re doing is dangerous but I think that matter what you think is right it matters that all of these companies are doing similar and it’s already terrifying people I mean look when I saw somebody got banned from their bank account that’s terrifying and PayPal has done this for a long time you know that seems like more egregious looting banned from any social just or social media platform that seems me to be worthy of a boycott Patriot patreon issued a statement about a man I believe his name is Robert Spencer and they said MasterCard instructed us to ban him and you know what you don’t say this to me mentioning chase PayPal MasterCard.
Terrifies me I’m on the Joe Rogan podcast right now calling out these big companies in defiance and we’ve artists I would like to know all the specifics of why they chose to do that and I would hope that they would release some sort of a statement explaining why they chose to do that maybe there’s something we don’t know there was a reporter and I could begin this wrong cuz I didn’t follow it very much with big league politics who said that after reporting on PayPal negatively they banned him that’s terrifying so that’s reporting on it in what way like reporting on the sargon of akkad issue no apparently is a journalist he wrote about something bad PayPal did big league politics is conservative and so all of a sudden he got a notification that they can’t tell him why but he’s gone so I see these big tech monopolies I see YouTube Facebook Twitter I see PayPal MasterCard and they’re doing it and they all say they’re doing the right thing but all of these little they’re doing are adding up to something nightmarish and some right legislators gonna show up and in a matter of time with a sledgehammer and.
Just he’s gonna whack your algorithm well it’s really the same stupid logic where I was talking about where you know Gavin was saying punch people will you punch people it end there oh yeah ban them man it end there yeah you have to realize also twitter is how old now 11 years old 12 years old 13 years old 13 years old well 13 years from now one of the odds that there’s not gonna be something else just like it well pretty slim million no but let’s talk about the incestuous relationship that a lot of these journalists have been defending the policies you guys push gab it was a study was done I talked about this last time where they found 5 of the tweet of the panel is a tweets but the post on camp or hate speech commanded Twitter’s like 2.4 so it’s a marginal increase yet gab is called the white supremacy Network of course you go on it and yeah absolutely exists they say that synagogue shooter oh he was a gap user he was a Twitter user too he posted on Twitter all the time so why the media is targeting it’s such a crazy Samaras reality it is active.
Nerd when the Guardian I believe was the Daily Mail called count dank EULA and Nazi hate criminal law that literally made a joke on YouTube and he’s being he was arrested I thank God every day we have the First Amendment in this country well there’s a cover of a newspaper that was caught because he got a job somewhere maybe he got fired for he got kicked off the show Wow yeah that’s oh so you have cuz of try let me ask you another thing do you guys do you guys take the advice of the Southern Poverty Law Center do we take the advice of like so it’s widely circulated the SPLC lobbies various social platforms to ban certain people they advise it’s been reported they advised YouTube as is the anti-defamation league did you use them in your decision-making process it rule development we’re very aware of flaws with certain of their research and we’re very careful about who we take advice from but do you take advice from them um I think that they have certainly reached out to our team members but they’re certainly nothing definitive that we take from them we don’t take.
Action you never take an action based on information received from them so the reason I bring them up specifically is that they’re cited often you know in the Post Office united states there’s other groups like hope not hate in the UK and now they’re all gonna point there you know figurative guns at me for saying this but the Southern Poverty Law Center wrote an article where they claimed I went to Iran for a Holocaust deniers conference and I’ve never been to Iran and their evidence was this guy found an archived website from a Holocaust denier with my name on it and that was their proof and there are people who have been labeled you know extremists by this organization that have been you Sam Harris will start was yeah didn’t they lose a big lawsuit a settling yeah so again like not to imply that you guys do use it but I asked specifically because it’s been reported other organizations do so we have activist organizations we have journalists that I can attest are absolutely activist because I’ve worked for I worked for vice I worked for fusion I was told it implicitly not explicitly lie to side with the.
Audience as it were I’ve seen the narratives they push and I’ve had conversations with people that I’m not I’m gonna keep relatively off-the-record journalists who are terrified because they said the narrative is real right one journalist in particular said that he had yet evidence of you know essentially he had reason to believe there was a wrongdoing but if he talks about it he could lose his job and there was a journalist who reported to me that date and society admitted the report what was incorrect and now you’ve got organizations lobbying for terminating Joe and I because of this stuff so this narrative persists then you see all the actions I mentioned before and the organization saying we’re doing the right thing and I gotta say like we’re living in it mean I feel like we’re looking at the doorway to the nightmare dystopia I just want to clarify like I’d I don’t know if we’re going around saying we’re necessarily doing the right thing we’re saying why we’re doing what we’re doing right that’s what we need to get better at and I don’t want to hide behind what we.
Believe is like the right thing we have to clearly rationalize why we’re making the decision we’re making and more of that’s that to me is the prevention from this snowflake Avalanche metaphor oh but I think it’s just obvious to point out again I said this before we can have the calm conversation and I can understand you but for I’m from where I’m sitting you hold a vastly different ideology than I do and you have substantially more power in controlling my government that terrifies me and what makes it worse is that a Saudi prince owns a place was reported that Saudi prince owns a portion of that company so I’m sitting here like just a little American can’t do anything to stop it I’m just watching this unaccountable machine turn away and you’re just one snowflake in that avalanche all these other companies are as well and I’m like well here we go there’s gonna be a riot said that Saudi princes have any influence but what am I supposed to trust that that’s the issue right I’m not trying to insinuate he’s showing up to your meetings and telling you what to do but when someone dumps a billion dollars in your company I think it’s.
Silly to imply that they don’t at least have some influence regardless and unlike the internet within a company like ours you don’t necessarily see the protocol you don’t see the processes and that’s an area where we can do a lot much right I s you know beat it over the head a million times be the dead horse I think ultimately yeah I get what you’re doing I think it’s wrong I think it’s and I think looking slut we’re on the avalanche already it’s happened and we’re heading down to this nightmare scenario of a future where it terrifies me when I see people who claim to be supporting liberal ideology burning signs that say free speech threatening violence against other people you have these journalists who do the same thing they accuse everybody of being a Nazi everybody of being a fascist jokes and you’re like a socialist far as I know you’ll at UVI proponent you know I wouldn’t necessarily say I’m very being facetious I’m very liberal and except for a second amendment that’s probably the only thing that I disagree.
and then you see what the media says about everybody you see how they call Jordan Peterson all day and night alright y’all ready hates them and this narrative is used to strip people of their income to remove them from public discourse well it’s foolish because it in the ultimately upon examination like you’re saying that sunlight is the best disinfectant absolutely and upon examination you realize that this is not true at all and that these people look foolish like the data in society article no all these organizations publish that as fact without looking at any maybe some did but any dozens but yeah and no they still fighting about and millions of people whose who are these people that are still citing it Guardian well class start yelling shame but so foolish we now have and this mitten which makes muddy or is we now have a guy who’s claiming that he did and they’re gonna love this there’s a guy claiming that the eighty one accounts listed on this thing is all trite have been are no longer being recommended on YouTube and.
So I looked at the statistics for various people on this channel because first of all my channel is doing great my recommendations are way up as are yours a lot of people are growing and I did a comparison like subscribers are up views are up what’s this guy claiming and apparently he did a big sampling of videos where he for some reason thought you Joe Rogan were twelve percent of all videos in this network and then that when his data stopped working he claimed that everything stopped so he actually produced the graph of primarily you at your channel and then when his system stopped working he published that and it was picked up by Cena and now you have people claiming the alt-right has been banned from YouTube and it’s more 60 Minutes fake news based off Middle School fake news based off New York fake news I don’t understand what you’re saying so basically there’s a guy claiming that because of data in society we have been stripped of recommendations on YouTube thank you I’ll tell you one thing that is true though we don’t trend like Alex Jones was saying like the video we did got nine million views but it’s not trending and I said well it’s because my.
Videos never trend they just don’t trend well here but I think it’s probably because of the language that’s used I think that’s part of the issue it’s a subject matter in language I think they have a bias against swearing and you know extreme topics and subjects if I don’t think that’s true because you’ve had like late-night TV hosts talk about really messed up they’ll swear wait they don’t swear though that it’s not this it’s not a matter of and what they talk about whether that’s messed up in comparison what we talked about it’s probably pretty different you know in uh I’m fairly resigned to this future happening no matter what we do and so I bought a van and I’m gonna convert it to us Christ well I’m coming to a work station right you’re gonna be a prepper bro no um first of all I will say it’s hilarious to me like that people have band-aids they never use but they don’t store like at least one emergency like food supply it’s like you never use mandates why do you have them but no do I see this every day it was a couple years ago I said wow I.
See what’s happening on social media we’re gonna see boom violence happened I said oh it’s gonna escalate someone’s gonna kill boom shots will happen and it’s like i-i’ve there have been statements from foreign security advisors international security experts saying we’re facing down high probability of civil war and I know it sounds crazy it’s not gonna look like what you think it looks like it may not be Extreme as it wasn’t 1800s but this was I think it was in the Atlantic where they surveyed something like ten different international security experts who said based on what the platforms are doing based on how the people are responding one guy said it was like 90 chance but the average was really high well let’s look outside of the idea of physical war and let’s look at the war of information what we’re talking about what’s happening with foreign entities invading social media platforms and trying to influence our elections in our democracy that is a war of information is that war is already going on if you’re looking at something like data in society that’s sort of an act of war in.
That regard right it’s an information war an attempt lie to people it’s about their ideological opponents and it’s also one of the woman who wrote said that it’s been proven and over again the deep platforming is an effective way to Cylons and then called for us to be been yeah what’s it’s kind of hilarious I don’t think she was saying that we should be banned I don’t think she said well she should be she said something the affect of YouTube has to take action to prevent this from you know well you know people see someone saying that they don’t agree with it’s very important for people to understand we’re silencing people leads to and I don’t think they do I think people have these very simplistic ideologies and these very narrow-minded perceptions of what is good and what is wrong and I think and I’ve been saying this and over again but I think it’s one of the most important to state people need learn to be reasonable they need to be learn to be reasonable and discourse civil source is extremely important and think over the long term yes they understand it you’re.
Playing chess yeah we did three hours and 30 minutes then we nobody had a P amazing view we did start a little late yeah we’re like 3:15 okay mean I guess the last thing I could say is I don’t I think we had a good conversation I think we did honestly I don’t think we’ve solved anything I don’t think there’s many any do you think we could do this again like six months and see where you guys are at in terms of like what I think important is the road to redemption I think that would open up a lot of doors for a lot of people to appreciate you we’re gonna need more than six months here’s the scary thing the information travels faster than you can write that’s the point I was making the our culture is going to evolve faster than you can catch up to that problem because there’s a problem and I don’t well you know technology took a big leap Twitter existed the internet existed now we’re all talking so quickly you can’t actually solve the problem before the people get outraged by it so no can I mean there was an early phrase in the internet by some of the earliest in internet engineers and designers which code is law and lot.
Of a lot of what companies like ours startups and random folks who are individuals who are contributing to the Internet will change parts of society and some for the positive and some for the negative and the most I think the most important thing that we need to do is to as we just said shine I’ll punch a light on it make sure that people know where we stand and where we’re trying to go and what bridges we might need to build from our current state to the future state and be open about the fact that like we’re not going to and this is to your other point we’re not going get to a perfect answer here like it’s just going to be steps and the what we need to build is agility what we need to build is an ability to experiment very quickly and take in all these feedback loops that we get some feedback loops like this um within the numbers itself and then they integrate them much faster what’s wrong with the jury system on Twitter why wouldn’t that work I don’t know why I want to work on I’m not saying we wouldn’t test that yeah like we’re testing is our scope in I.
Don’t have reason a compelling reason why we want do it with and Twitter either I don’t so we likely will but you know again we were a company of so many resources finite people and we need to prioritize and we’ve decided you may disagree with this decision but we’ve decided that Care Home physical safety and the admission of off platform ramifications is critical for us and we need to be able to be a lot more proactive in our enforcement which will lead to stronger answers and we want to focus on the Primary School physical safety aspect and daxing is a perfect example that has patterns that are recognizable and then we can move on I hear it and I just feel like you know the conclusion I can come to him the conversation is you’re gonna do what you think needs to be done I think what you’re doing is wrong and ultimately nothing’s gonna I get it you’re gonna try new technologies you’re gonna try and do new systems the from where I see it I think you have an ideology diametrically opposed to mine I mean not to an extreme degree I think there are people who are more like I’m not.
Conservative there are a lot of people who are probably think you know I’ll say this too you’re a symbol for a lot of them and so I can definitely respect you having a conversation there are so many different companies do that piss people off you sitting here right now I’m sure there’s a ton of conservatives who are pointing all of their anger at because you are here but you know ultimately I just feel like I don’t think anything’s gonna change I think you’re on your path you know what you need to do and you’re trying to justify it and I’m looking at what Twitter is doing as very wrong and it’s oppressive and ideologically driven and I’m trying to justify why you shouldn’t do it but nothing’s gonna change mine my intention is to build a platform that gives as many people as possible opportunity to freely express themselves and something believe the Unites States has already done that and Twitter is now going against what the US has developed over hundreds it have a platform I mean the Atlanta Motel united states have a platform to do that Twitter is the when you’re talking about the Internet the.
Postal Service united states if they want to come up with the Phone Number united states Twitter like a solution on alternative that the government runs and they it use free speech to govern that good luck with that once it’s a huge challenge and also I recognize it’s not just you know almost insurmountable I mean have the dummies that are in charge of the United States government this is why set regulation to is scary yeah slide shits a terrible idea so but you know and I think it’s important to point out too that a lot of people don’t realize you guys have to contend with profits you have to be able to make money to pay your staff there’s no like you don’t get free money to run your company so aside from the fact that you have advertisers want to be on the platform I imagine a lot of these companies are enforcing hate speech policies because advertisers don’t want to be associated with certain so that creates you know through advertisement cultural restrictions that’s a hundred percent the problem right now hundred percent the problem with most these platforms including YouTube absolutely yeah I mean when the.
PD pie thing happened and all of these you know restrictions came down on advertising and content creators that’s where it comes from it comes from money it’s why it does good just to be clear those can be segmented as well second guys advertisers can choose where they want to where they want to be placed certainly but the platform recognizes there’s a huge blowback and they’re losing money I mean look at the pedo scandal that just happened on YouTube it was people posting comments with timestamps they weren’t even breaking the rules and advertisers pull up the platform and YouTube didn’t realize because they weren’t breaking the rules they’re just creepy dudes so maybe people yeah also they were putting comments and so one of the most preposterous responses to was that content creators gonna be responsible for their comments well they’ve written them off well the problem with this ledge people like me is that I put out a lot of content and there’s millions of views and it’s impossible to moderate on the comments and we don’t moderate them at all about YouTube and only on videos with minors.
So they deleted all comments with mine yes videos when they say youth but you know I’m saying if you put a youtube video on you have a bunch of people that say a bunch of racist in your YouTube comments you could be held responsible and get a no YouTube clarified that they clarified one that recently they said that afterwards but the first initial statement was that you were going to response me up for your comments and then I said it’s michael like philip defranco and a lot of people freaked out and then they quality but so the reason I bring that up is just because there’s gonna be that even if you segment your advertisers from look you know I pointed out I think the Democrats are in a really dangerous position because outrage culture although it exists in all factions is predominantly on one faction and so when Trump comes out and says something really offensive you know grab them by the you know I’m talking about the Trump supporters laugh they bought t-shirts that said it the people on Left the Democrat types they got angry so what happens now you see Bernie.
Sanders he’s being dragged the media is looking for blood and desperate they’re laying people off they’re dying and they will do whatever it takes to get those clicks there was enough like you know as I have to do with Twitter though it has to do with the fact that someone’s going to find something on your platform and they’re gonna call up your advertiser and say look what Twitter is doing and you’re gonna be like ah we had no idea and they’re too bad and cancelled all ads your money’s right up and so the reason I bring that up is I recognize Twitter YouTube Facebook these other platforms are worried money has to come from somewhere to pay people so you also have to realize you’ve got the press that’s salivating looking for that juicy story where they can accuse you of wrongdoing because it’ll get them clicks they’ll make money and that means even though YouTube did nothing wrong with these comments it was just a creepy group of people who didn’t break the rules who figured out manipulate the system YouTube a like YouTube had to the take that one the advertisers pulled out YouTube lost money so YouTube then.
Panics sledgehammers comments just wipes them out that cap in anybody right we’re in a really dangerous time with also in their defense so they have to deal with that I mean they have a bunch of pedophiles that are posting comments I mean what you do about that what do you know what other than hire millions of people to moderate every single video that’s put on YouTube which is almost impossible the point I’m trying to break bring up is that even if Twitter wanted to say you know what we’re gonna allow free speech what happens advertisers are later even if you segment it they’re gonna be threatened to buy it and so there was actions are gonna come from whether or not you can make money doing it I don’t know about that I don’t know I think that is changing and I think that is changing primarily because the internet if you look at what was acceptable in terms of people discussing that would get advertisement it was network television standards now that’s changing I mean there’s gonna be there’s ads on the line yeah I put out that have pretty extreme content it’s because advertisers are changing.
Their perspective but do you I don’t they’re shifting their hundred-percent shifting that’s why this podcast has ads sure mean I don’t think it’s it to the point where everyone’s lost all ads but I look you think George Carlin will be allowed to do his bit today yes no come on man we’re not right you would be able to do it listen there’s stuff like that on Netflix specials that are out right now are changing it’s just in the process of this transformation where people are understanding that because of the internet first if you look at late-night conversations how about Colbert saying that President Trump has Putin’s dick in his mouth how about him saying that on television do you really think that would have been done 10 years ago it wouldn’t have been 15 years ago or 20 impossible not possible but you’d Anders are changing because of the Internet so that were impossible to say on network television just ten years ago you can say that haven’t Kevin Hart lost his Oscar hosting gig because 10 years ago right but do you know why he lost it because people were.
Complaining right because people who activists were complaining that he had said some homophobic and they don’t every had subsequently apologised for before they ever listened that count Daniel as a comedian okay look you were to discuss this I’m with you and I understand what you’re saying comedian but I’m a comedian and I understand where are going the demise of free speech is greatly exaggerated that’s what I’m saying there’s a lot of people out there that are complaining but the problem is not necessarily that there’s so many people that are complaining the problem is that people are reacting to those complaints right the vast majority of the population is recognizing that there is an evolution of free speech that’s occurring in our culture in all cultures around the world but this is a slow process that when you’re in the middle of it it’s so almost like evolution well you’re in the middle of it you don’t think anything is happening but it’s happening oh so yeah I agree with you I agree with you that the majority of people are alike that’s funny I don’t care but the.
Minority is kind of dictating right for now they’re not even dictating they’re just making a lot of noise and that noise is having an effect that’s what data in society was an attempt at right I don’t think it was effective that’s why we’re still here for talking right now it was one attack articles that are written about all sorts of that are inaccurate or and some people have been eating in a bank accounts and some people up and kicked up yes this is why it’s important to have this conversation right conversations like this well so here’s what I’ll say just I cross my fingers and I wait for when you implement block technology bro well the van is going to be a mobile production studio so I can travel around when are getting crazy a lot of water know I’m putting more than just band-aids I’m putting a shower in it okay it’s gonna be like a computer monitors and I’m gonna be able to do video so I can travel around when everything’s happening but I tape this up I want to see the blockchain version of Twitter where it’s an exists.
That’s what I want to see it’s gonna happen whether we like it or not any last thoughts no I just want to thank you Joe has been great and Tim thanks for your feel like you we’re always listening and I’ve learned a lot today thank you I really appreciate you guys thank you jack thank you any last no I think we’ve said it all that’s a wrap folks no more ear beatings goodnight everybody that was awesome thank you thanks chopped for talking I really do appreciate it could you and I when so when Lauren.
Something got banned from patreon hold on a lot of people
- Free Speech Public Discourse
- Hate Speech High Profile
- Proud Boys White People
- Alex Jones United States
- Jacob Wall Jp Morgan megan murphy
- Foreign Governments Physical Safety
- Vietnam War american citizens Twitter Delete direct messages
- Banning People Trans People
- Hundred Percent Pay Attention
- Hateful Conduct Recipe New york times